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Author Topic:   The Three KINDS
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5172 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 15 of 22 (450492)
01-22-2008 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
01-11-2008 3:55 PM


Exactly 22 Kinds, here they are listed:
FYI - Ancient Jewish writings stated that there were exactly 22 kinds, and listed them. Back in my "How many kinds are there?" thread (http://EvC Forum: How many Kinds are there? -->EvC Forum: How many Kinds are there?)I wrote:
I found this in a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, from 4Q216 Col. 4-7 (pg. 321 in Wise & Abegg “The Dead Sea Scrolls”), which has:
In all there were 22 kinds. He finished all his works on the 6th day, everything that was in the heavens, on the earth, in the seas, in the depths, in the light, and in the darkness, in every place.
Wow, 22 kinds! Now we know.
Here is the list, which contains both living and non-living things:
OK, here is the breakdown given in the Dead Sea Scrolls - if you read Gen 1:1-31, you’ll see that it matches the Genesis account very closely.
Day # # Kinds made that day List of the Kinds made on given day
1 7? Several kinds of Heavenly spirits that make rain, snow, etc. ?
2 1? The Firmament?
3 4 1. Plants that make seeds, 2. sprouting plants, 3. fruiting plants, 4. forests
4 3 1. Sun, 2. Moon, and 3. Stars
5 3 1. Sea monsters, 2. Fish and swarming ocean life?, 3. Birds
6 4 1. Humans, 2. Land animals?, 3. Things that creep on the land?, 4. Cattle
Total 22 DSS are clear that the total is 22
There are several places where the text is unclear or simply missing. I’ve indicated this with question marks.
My summary of the effects of this list is:
The reason I asked is because an examination of the kinds can provide evidence as to whether this is of divine origin or of human origin. If it is of human origin, one would expect that the groups to fit a bronze age worldview, with only very general similarities being used, without knowledge of the detailed scientific findings since the Enlightenment. Categories could be expected to overlap because of this lack of knowledge. By this, one would expect the kinds to be very biased toward what a bronze age warrior can see.
On the other hand, if this is divinely inspired, one could expect that the classification will be far in advance of what a bronze age warrior would otherwise guess. For instance, it might be pointed out that There is more than one kind of worm (entire phyla), while all vertebrates are a single kind (phylum level).
I hope everyone knows better than to use the “people back then could only understand dumbed down science” approach. People back then had the same brains we do, and were just as smart. They were ignorant, but that’s easy to fix with knowledge. Hindus for instance had already postulated a universe billions of years old, and the intricacies of language show that ancient Jewish people weren’t stupid. Because of this, simply telling them the correct answer would have worked well.
The upshot is that the list found in the DSS, just like the Genesis account itself which it closely matches, shows all the hallmarks of a bronze age human account, and is filled with scientific errors. For instance, nearly all phyla are hardly mentioned - such as sponges, nematodes, all prokaryotes and archaea, etc. All animal phyla but one (chordates) are lumped into “things that swarm in the water” and “land creepers”. Plants are very crudely classified apparently by reproductive method (except “forests”), with many plants falling into most of the categories simultaneously (many make forests, make fruit, have seeds, and sprouts). Where would all the mosses, ferns and the whole fungi kingdom go? Vertebrates, on the other hand, which bronze age warriors would be most familiar with, are spread over a half-dozen kinds (5.5 of the 7 animal kinds are vertebrates). Lastly, mythical creatures are included, such as sea monsters (or do they mean whales?) and weather spirits - as well as including non-living things, and not knowing that the sun is an ordinary star (just closer).
All this shows that this creation account (Gen+DSS) has a human origin, and that attributing it to God is simple blasphemy.
Have a good day everyone-
Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 01-11-2008 3:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 10:15 AM Equinox has replied
 Message 21 by Tusko, posted 01-23-2008 12:36 PM Equinox has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5172 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 17 of 22 (450550)
01-22-2008 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
01-22-2008 10:15 AM


Re: Exactly 22 Kinds, here they are listed:
Sorry, I guess I just don't understand what the point of this is. I mean, the Bible and related texts describe many kinds (oh and what are the verse numbers to give those 6 bird kinds?), so I don't see how your three are relevant to anything.
But since you wanted others, how about fire, plasma, muon, quark, light (from gamma to radio), antimatter, white dwarf, bacteria, fungi, extremophile, black hole, dark matter, superstring, and dark energy, for fun?
Have a good day-
-Equinox
Edited by Equinox, : added mushrooms

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 2:47 PM Equinox has replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5172 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 19 of 22 (450666)
01-23-2008 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
01-22-2008 2:47 PM


Re: Exactly 22 Kinds, here they are listed:
For the verses - you made the claim, could you please tell me which verses? Dt and Lv are big books.
Relevance - I still don't see the relevance of your categories. That could be done for any dichotomy. For instance, the three kinds could be:
1. Things that are blue
2. things that are partially blue or of unknown blueness
3. Things that are not blue.
Even if a categorical system works, that doesn't mean that's the one genesis uses, or that it matters, even to any discussion.
about if they fit - Yes, I agree the ones I gave can still fit in there. I misremembered your categories as being animal, vegetable and mineral, not live or dead.
have a fun day-
Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 2:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-23-2008 10:04 AM Equinox has replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5172 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 22 of 22 (452456)
01-30-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
01-23-2008 10:04 AM


Re: Exactly 22 Kinds, here they are listed:
Jar - thanks for the examples. The standard apologetic answer is that those are just referring to the larger kind they come from. While that may not be what the text says, for the reasons mentioned earlier, it seems like an irrelevant point to me.
Have a good day-
Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-23-2008 10:04 AM jar has not replied

  
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