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Author Topic:   Dinosaurs living with humans?
Ediacaran
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 112 (110802)
05-27-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by redwolf
05-07-2004 9:07 AM


Red writes: You've got dinosaur and human tracks together around Glen Rose Texas.
A lot of stuff turns up for that one, do your own google search on 'paluxy' and 'dinosaur' and check it out. The evolutionist claims that all such evidence is fake ring pretty hollow at this point.
Edi responds:
"Stuff" is a good G-rated substitute for the scatological term. The Paluxy "mantracks" are touted by self-proclaimed "Dr." Carl Baugh, the creationist who runs the Creation Evidences Museum in Glen Rose, Texas. It turns out that claims of fossilized mantracks along the Paluxy River are as bogus as Baugh's alleged science degrees.
The dinosaur tracks are real enough (at least the ones in situ), but there are no fossil "mantracks" - only the deluded imaginations of creationists, who see "mantracks" in sloppy dinotracks (which were partially infilled with mud as a bipedal dino pulled its feet out of the muck - such alleged "mantracks" have discernible three-toed claw impressions and stains). Creationists also imagine "mantracks" in various erosional features.
Baugh's silly claims have even made some creationists turn against him. Answers in Genesis denounced Baugh, and the Institute for Creation Research was duped for awhile, but finally printed a half-hearted semi-retraction regarding the "mantracks" (around ICR Impact 151 or 152 or so, if I recall correctly), then quietly let the matter drop to avoid further embarassment. Of course, many creationists still buy into the "mantrack" nonsense, and Baugh even has a TV show on the fundamentalist Trinity Broadcasting Network.
The mantrack claims didn't start with Baugh, however. In fact, early in the century, a few Glen Rose locals used to carve fake dino tracks and "mantracks" to sell to tourists, to compete with the few landowners that had actual dino prints to sell. That is how they came to the attention of the scientific community - Roland Bird saw some fake tracks - both dino and exaggerated "mantracks" - in a curio shop in the desert southwest, and asked around for their source (since he suspected the dino tracks were probably modeled after the real thing)and eventually found they came from Glen Rose. The best of the tracks were excavated and sent to museums in New York, NY and Austin, TX.
Glen Kuban has done an excellent job of exposing the false claims of Baugh's. Point your browser to:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html
As for Baugh's alleged degrees, see:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/degrees.html
Since Red is the one in denial, I'll finish with a warning about Baugh's claims written by the creationists at Answers in Genesis, since he'll only accept creationist sources:
http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/whatbau.htm
Baugh also claims that fire-breathing dragons are living at the bottom of the sea, awaiting Armageddon. He's hilarious. If you ever have a chance to visit his double-wide "Creation Evidences Museum", it's one of the funniest carny shows you'll ever see.
Oh, and the "university" pictured on Baugh's website on the dissertation page? It's actually The Church At Burleson, formerly Burleson Baptist Temple. It seems many of Baugh's friends start unaccredited diploma mills, as documented in Kuban's article (Kuban mentions another church "university" as one of Baugh's Alma Maters in the article).
If you're ever in Glen Rose, visit the Dinosaur Valley State Park, and see the real dino tracks for yourself. No valid fossil "mantracks" to be found, despite the wishful thinking of Young-Earth creationists.
This message has been edited by Ediacaran, 05-26-2004 11:49 PM
This message has been edited by Ediacaran, 05-27-2004 12:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by redwolf, posted 05-07-2004 9:07 AM redwolf has not replied

  
Ediacaran
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 112 (111699)
05-31-2004 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Hangdawg13
05-30-2004 11:26 PM


You, too, can buy a bogus diploma!
Regarding creationist Don Patton -
Hangdawg writes:
He also spent 4 years studying geology at Peay State University TN and Indiana University/Purdue University, Indianapolis IN
He worked as a geologist in the US, Canada, Australia, England, Mexico, Peru, and Bolivia. He participated in dinosaur excavations in Colorado, Texas, Utah, Wyoming, and Canada.
I see you didn't read the article on Carl Baugh's bogus degrees, or you would have seen the section on his buddy Don Patton's bogus degrees. Here's an excerpt from what Glen Kuban wrote regarding creationist Don Patton (the article is copyright 1989 by Glen Kuban, and is found at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/degrees.html):
Don Patton's Alleged Credentials
Since early 1989, Don Patton, a close associate of Carl Baugh and leader of Metroplex Institute of Origins Science (MIOS) near Dallas, has claimed a Ph.D. (or "Ph.D. candidacy") in geology from Queensland Christian University in Australia.[33] However, QCU is another unaccredited school linked to Clifford Wilson. [34] When questioned about this at a recent MIOS meeting, Patton indicated that he was aware of some problems relating to QCU, and was withdrawing his Ph.D. candidacy.[35]
However, the printed abstracts of the 1989 Bible-Science conference in Dayton, Tennessee (where Patton gave two talks) stated that he was a Ph.D. candidacy in geology, and implied that he has at least four degrees from three separate schools.[36] When I asked Patton for clarification on this during the conference, he stated that he had no degrees, but was about to receive a Ph.D. degree in geology, pending accreditation of QCU, which he assured me was "three days away."[37] Many days have since passed, and Patton still has no valid degree in geology. Nor is the accreditation of QCU imminent. Australian researcher Ian Plimer reported, "PCI, QPU, PCT, and PCGS have no formal curriculum, no classes, no research facilities, no calendar, no campus, and no academic staff....Any Ph.D. or Ph.D. candidacy at QPU by Patton is fraudulent."[38]"
I've included the footnotes, since most of the same alleged degrees mentioned by Hangdawg are refuted there.
[33] Patton made this claim at some MIOS meetings attended by Ron Hastings. A video tape distributed by MIOS in 1989 stated that Patton had a doctorate degree in geology, although MIOS leaders later told Hastings that this was an error, and that they meant to state that Patton was a "Ph.D candidate" (Ron Hastings, communication).
[34] Plimer, Ian, FAX transmission from Australia, August 14, 1989.
[35] Hastings, Ron, personal communication, August 1989.
[36] Bryan '89, National Conference on Biblical Origins, August 10-12, 1989, at Bryan College, Dayton, Tennessee, sponsored by the Bible-Science Association and Bryan College, printed program and abstracts, p. 20. The program stated (misspelling Patton's name): "Mr. Patton received degrees from Florida College, Tampa, Florida, and he also received a degree in Geology from Austin Peay in Tennessee and from Indiana State University. He is in the final step of obtaining his doctoral degree from Queensland University in Australia." The person introducing Patton before his talk corrected the misspelling of Patton's name but not the errors regarding his degrees.
[37] Personal communication, Don Patton, August 12, 1989. Patton made what I consider his most revealing comment when I asked him whether he thought misrepresenting credentials in general was a serious matter. Patton replied that to him it was not, since it is a matter of "buyer beware." (Evidently he considers the public to be "buyers"). Buyer beware indeed!
[38] See reference 34.
---
However much Patton claims to have studied geology, he apparently doesn't have any degrees in the field. The education PhD he alleges to have is from a so-called "university" set up by his creationist colleague, Clifford Wilson.
Despite not having a Ph.D. in geology, Patton hands out business cards which read:
_MAZADA CORPORATION_
DON R. PATTON, PH.D
Consulting Geologist
813 Trails Parkway
Garland, TX 75043 (214)279-5325
Pretty misleading, huh? This is an old card, the area code may have changed by now.
I've been to Glen Rose, I've seen the dino tracks at Dinosaur Valley and at the McFall site. There are no fossil "mantracks" there. There aren't fossil "womantracks" either, despite Carl Baugh's claims.
Hangdawg writes:
He is presently a consulting geologist and partner in Mazada Corp. Dallas Tx, staff geologist at a museum at Glenn Rose, TX, Chairman of Metroplex Insititue of Origiin Science.
The "museum" is creationist Carl Baugh's Creation Evidences Museum: when I last visited, it was a double-wide trailer with a few fossils, a creationist mural, a hyperbaric chamber with some poisonous snakes, an aquarium, and a cheap audio range oscilloscope to make the whole shebang appear scientific to the gullible fundamentalists that make up the bulk of the audience.
The "Metroplex Institute of Origin Science" is simply a monthly meeting of Young-Earth creationists at whatever facility they can schedule, since the "Institute" doesn't have its own building; they used to meet at a recreation center near White Rock Lake in Dallas, but lately they've been meeting at a medical office building after work hours.
Hangdawg writes:
He was a member of the Geological Society of America and was a speaker at their '97 annual convention Salt Lake City. He has lectured at seven universities as well has numerous public debates.
As for membership in that fine organization, the Geological Society of America, you, too, can be a member - just send your membership fee of $65 or $30, depending on membership type. You don't even have to be a geologist (degreed or make-believe) to join, as long as you have $30. Join at 404
I see that Patton "was" a member, according to your post - is that because he paid his 30$ or so for one year, then stopped?
I suppose if I talk to someone while on a campus, I can be said to have "lectured" there. Wow, I've lectured at at least 7 universities too! And since I've argued in public with several creationists, I've "lectured at numerous public debates", too! See how that creationist doublespeak works?
Now, all I have to do is send 30$ to GSA, print up some misleading business cards, pick up a rock and look at it for signs of dinosaurs whenever I travel by car through several states or travel abroad (to be involved in "dinosaur excavations"), and I can be a "PhD" on par with Patton! Oops, I don't have any bogus degrees, though. Blasted accreditation! I guess I could send money to one of Clifford Wilson's unaccredited diploma mills...
Nah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-30-2004 11:26 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Ediacaran
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 112 (112046)
06-01-2004 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hangdawg13
05-30-2004 9:53 PM


Been there, done that
In an early post, Hangdawg writes:
The evidence from glenrose TX and Dinosaur National Monument Utah has never been refuted. Those who attempt to explain these away as being dubious dinosaur tracks or dubious human prints or bones of dubious origin obviously have not seen the evidence themselves.
As we've shown in several posts already, the claims of "mantracks" and other creationist claims that treat The Flintstones as a documentary have been debunked. The Creation/Evolution Journal by the National Center for Science Education has details. See the following issues, which include articles by scientists who debunked the Paluxy "mantrack" claims.
http://www.ncseweb.org/...5_volume_5_number_1__4_23_2003.asp
http://www.ncseweb.org/...7_volume_6_number_1__4_23_2003.asp
As has been pointed out previously, several of us have made the trip to Glen Rose, examined the alleged fossil "mantracks", put our feet in them, and noted that none of them are actual "mantracks".
Dino trackways, isolated erosional features, and the occasional fake "track" (whether carved during the Depression era or otherwise) do not make for valid mantracks. After some of the researchers who are mentioned in the articles rubbed the nose of John Morris (of the Institute for Creation Research) into the actual evidence, the ICR backed off its claims (someone already posted the link to the Paluxy Mystery from ICR Impact 151).
So, Hangdawg, your precious "mantracks" have been debunked by scientists. Your sources for the "mantrack" claims, Carl Baugh and Don Patton, have been thoroughly discredited, and their bogus degrees exposed. You've even been pointed to creationist websites at Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research showing that the "mantrack" claims aren't reliable. Any sane person who has seen the tracks for themselves should realize they aren't genuine "mantracks".
What excuses do you have left for touting the tracks as "mantracks"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-30-2004 9:53 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Ediacaran
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 112 (112613)
06-03-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by arachnophilia
06-03-2004 12:05 AM


Great, now Hangdawg will be touting Onyate Man as proof of creationism ... nice going Arachnophilia!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by arachnophilia, posted 06-03-2004 12:05 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2004 12:02 AM Ediacaran has not replied

  
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