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Author Topic:   How can evolution explain body symmetry?
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 220 of 284 (227117)
07-28-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by iano
07-28-2005 2:06 PM


Re: What's up Indoc...?
iano writes:
It matters not whether Evolution is true or not.
Yet we only hear that argument from people who don't accept evolution.
Why do you suppose the "indoctrination" doesn't work on the people who know the least about the subject? I would think that the more one studies a subject, the less effect "indoctrination" would have.
(And yes, there probably is a better place for this discussion.)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 2:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 228 of 284 (227142)
07-28-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by iano
07-28-2005 3:00 PM


Re: In Doctor, In Nation.
iano writes:
It could well happen in other areas of science....
But why mostly in evolution? Could it be because it threatens the "Christian" indoctrination that you don't see?
Majority rule is not an adequate defence against indoctrination.
You seem to have a low opinion of the majority. You think that the majority of people are indoctrinated and don't know it - and the minority, including you, see through the indoctrination. Why not the opposite? Why not conclude that the majority - which includes the most educated - sees clearly? Why not conclude that the minority - who know little about evolution - are the ones who are indoctrinated against it?
Hey, did I just come up with a piece of evidence!!?
If you did, I must have missed it. Can you elaborate?
If the indoctrination got there first then its through those eyes the scientist will see. That's the point of indoctrination after all.
No. The point of indoctrination is to prevent people from thinking for themselves. I'm not a scientist, but I don't think you can get a Ph.D. without thinking for yourself.
Your example of Hitler disproves your own point. Hitler suppressed the intellectuals. He drove the Jewish scientists - e.g. Einstein - out of the country. He was trying to prevent the educated people from exposing his lies.
Indoctrination works best on the ignorant.
If folk keep asking questions then can it not stay?
Far be it from me to be on topic but at least mention something near the topic once in a while, to fool the admins.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 3:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 3:31 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 236 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 6:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 284 (227155)
07-28-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by iano
07-28-2005 4:46 PM


Re: What's up Indoc...?
iano writes:
What experiment was ever carried out to see what effects mass indoctrination would have on the observational and conclusional characteristics of particular and very large group of scientists.
You still haven't told us:
Why do you think that thousands of people who make their living at critical thinking are more likely to be indoctrinated than you are?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 4:46 PM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 284 (227193)
07-28-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by iano
07-28-2005 6:20 PM


Re: In Doctor, In Nation.
iano writes:
... most people have come to believe it simply because they were repeatedly told so - not becasue they have critically analysed the data for themselves. Do you agree?
No. I don't agree.
Speaking for myself, I made it through 12 years of public schools and 4 years of university without ever being told much of anything about evolution. So, where do you suppose I got my "indoctrination"?
I also spent decades in evangelical churches, listening to thousands of sermons, without ever hearing much about evolution. But if I was "indoctrinated", which way do you think that indoctrination would have slanted?
Could you also agree that at least up until the time they entered science college, the average scientist is really in no better position to evaluate the data for themselves, free of 'exterior forces' than the man in the street?
Well, the person who is interested in science is more likely to be led by facts than by "doctrine". So I would say that he is probably freer of "exterior forces".
There are a few reasons which set evolutionary indoctrination as a class apart:
It is the most prevelent form of mass scientific indoctrination around.
Don't confuse information with indoctrination.
I have never watched a programme on Gravity on tv.
I have never watched a TV program on evolution. What's your point? (And TV might not be the best place for you to get your information, either. )
Rather than being a branch of science, it incorporates more branches of science that any other - though I may be wrong.
You are wrong. Evolution isn't actually a "science" at all - it's part of biology. And if other sciences happen to agree with evolution, it's because evolution is right, not because it holds some unholy sway over them.
The consequences of it, if it is true, affects everybody on earth
So do the consequences of gravity. What's your point?
"you're an animal". That's a very significant thing to be telling people....
"You're made of chemicals." Why is that any less devastating?
If you agree everybody has been helplessly indoctrinated (up to end of college)....
Have we met? I don't agree.
You say the majority are educated. I say the minority are too.
Take a look around these forums. Those who oppose evolution very seldom know the first thing about it. They are the ones who are clearly indoctrinated by religion. (You'll find that most of them don't know much about religion either.)
If a person with absolutely no tools to evaluate evolution critically, walks into college believing evolution and leaves with a Ph.D, 7 years later still believing it....
You really do have a low opinion of Ph.Ds, don't you? I don't think a person with "absolutely no tools to evaluate evolution critically" would be able to get a Ph.D. in science.
Indoctrination in fact, works best on the young. They're more believing than the ignorant....
Got any kids? Children are very trusting and believing up to a point. But there comes a time in their development when they wouldn't believe you if you said they were on fire. That's when they have the potential to become scientists.
The truly ignorant, on the other hand, are incurably ignorant. Once again, see the pages of these forums.
... you don't have to slaughter the intellectuals if the intellectuals (if unconciously) are the ones doing the indoctrinating...
Then why do the tyrants always go after the intellectuals first?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by iano, posted 07-28-2005 6:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 9:39 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 242 by iano, posted 07-29-2005 9:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 284 (227301)
07-29-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
07-29-2005 9:03 AM


Re: In Doctor, In Nation.
iano writes:
... on what basis do you think they believe it.
Most people who "haven't learned the tools to critically evaluate the evidence for themselves" don't "believe" in evolution. That's the problem, really.
Maybe do as I've done and give a mechanism rather than an assertion.
Wait a minute, now. Your "mechanism" is just an assertion. I've been asking you: why do you think that you are immune to the supposed "indoctrination"? I have also asked where you think the "indoctrination" was in my life. You got a lot of 'splainin' to do before you can call your bare assertion a "mechanism".
Immersed in indoctrination naked when it comes to evaluating. Is he not?
You seem to have as low an opinion of children as you do of Ph.Ds.
Think 'most' not 'you' when it comes to the argument.
No. You have it backwards.
You are proposing an almost universal "indoctrination". I am telling you that I was never "indoctrinated". That's one exception to your "rule" and I am sure there are many more like me - including many on this board.
It is up to you to "explain away" the exceptions to your rule. If you can't do that, you don't have a rule.
Ever hear, as a child, the words 'Neandrathal man', 'ape turned into man', 'original of the species' 'evolution is a fact' then as a teenager 'mutation was the mechanism along with' 'natural selection'?
No.
My father was a creationist (but before Morris turned it into a commercial enterprize). I grew up hearing, "radiocarbon dating is crap", "we're not related to the Flintstones", etc.
And yet I was able to overcome that indoctrination. Can you explain that, please?
You don't agree then that there are paleantologists, biologist,biochemists etc, etc, who have all the same training to evaluate data - yet don't agree with evolution.
Now, there's an assertion that you should be able to back up. Name a few hundred of them and we'll talk.
... a claim that anybody who doesn't agree with evolution must be ignorant or religious doesn't gel with the facts.
Trot out yer facts, son.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 07-29-2005 9:03 AM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 248 of 284 (227306)
07-29-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by iano
07-29-2005 10:21 AM


Re: Drivers.....Re-start your engines...
Ahem....
That's not a good start, newbie.
First of all, we're off-topic here but we're cutting you some slack.
Second, you don't set the rules here. You will get responses that you don't like. You will be expected to back up your assertions.
I, for one, will continue to debate and/or argue as I see fit. I offer my wrists for the slapping thereof if the moderators see fit.
I look forward to you backing up your thus-far empty assertions.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by iano, posted 07-29-2005 10:21 AM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 284 (227326)
07-29-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by iano
07-29-2005 11:38 AM


EI EI Oh?
iano writes:
You've said very little (if anything) which directly tackles either EI,MI,T1 on the macro scale. By all means do so
Actually, you've said little or nothing to back up your assertion that "indoctrination" rules. So far, everybody who has responded to you is an exception to the rule.
How about some substance from you before you start demanding it from others?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by iano, posted 07-29-2005 11:38 AM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 284 (227340)
07-29-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Chiroptera
07-29-2005 12:00 PM


Re: once again, into the breech....
Chiroptera writes:
So, is this an admission that you don't have anything of substance to say?
*cough* Troll *cough*

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Chiroptera, posted 07-29-2005 12:00 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Chiroptera, posted 07-29-2005 12:08 PM ringo has not replied

  
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