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Author Topic:   For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 113 (232248)
08-11-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tal
08-11-2005 10:14 AM


Tal, we are in The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy forum
"In your opinion" is not a sufficient rebuttal.
I have presented each of the first eight alleged prophecies in you OP. I have also presented the context in which they are found and specific reasons that each one is not prophecy but after the fact quotemining.
You are requested to either support your assertion or to withdraw it.
Once that is done we can look at the rest of the prophecies in your OP or alternatively, if there happens to be one in particular you believe can be supported, we will look at it.
IMHO Christianity is a wonderful religion and has much to offer. It is diminished however by Pastors that simply don't know what they are talking about. Claims such as those laid out in the OP do nothing but diminish the worth and credibility of Christianity. It's time for Christians to quit dealing with nonsense Proofs and to begin living the live of Christ.
The message is simple and requires no prophecy for support.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 10:14 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 92 of 113 (232249)
08-11-2005 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tal
08-11-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Let's look at 7 & 8
quote:
I said:don't we actually have to see some evidence that he did any of those things before we worry about that bit?
You said:You will.
So when do we get that bit? I realise that you are giving us lesser mortals time for your exquisite prose and your cogent analysis of the problem to be fully dissected and deconstructed but I feel that we will be able to struggle on very shortly.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-Aug-2005 10:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 10:19 AM Tal has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 93 of 113 (232283)
08-11-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tal
08-11-2005 10:18 AM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Rahvin, did I not start out the OP saying there were 3 different ways you could look at the info? Look at the title! You can either take this as prophecy, coincidence, or made up. I never inferred with the title that this WAS absolute prophecy and there's noway you can look at it as anything but.
If I say you can look at this 1 of 3 ways, and you pick way 2, what am I defending?
The problem is that you are wrong.
Jar has soundly proven that your "prophesies" were talking about something completely different, and had nothing to do with Jesus.
If I say there are 3 differnt ways you can look at the color of the sky:
1) it's blue becuase the Earth is wrapped in blue celophane
2) the air itself glows blue all the time
3) the specific chemical makeup of the air in the atmosphere filters out certain wavelenghts of light, and blue, being the shortest wavelength, gets through to us. This gives the appearance of a blue sky.
You could say "Well, I picked number one, what am I defending? There are three ways to look at it, and this is my opinion!"
But you would be flat wrong. Your opinion would be based on false facts. There is no celophane layer to the atmoshpere, and we can readily prove that. The "prophesies" you are using were not prophesies at all, and Jar has readily proven that..
You can't hide behind opinion. Opinions can be wrong.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 10:18 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 1:44 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 94 of 113 (232314)
08-11-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Rahvin
08-11-2005 12:40 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Found this about whether or not prophicies that occured in the text of a story.
Some of the prophecies occur as part of the text of a story. So, a natural question would be, How do you know these are Messianic prophecies? Couldn’t someone have read these texts after Jesus came along and claimed they are Messianic prophecies?
The reason we know these texts were intended to be Messianic prophecies is because they were recognized (and discussed) by the Jews before Jesus’ birth.
One of the common debates was whether or not the Messiah was actually two people (or twins) since it seemed impossible to them that one person could accomplish both of the Messiah’s goals (Isaiah 61:1-3).
We now know that Jesus accomplished one goal (preaching the good news and becoming the sacrifice that saves us) when He came to Earth, told everyone God’s new plan of salvation, and was crucified.
He will fulfill the other goal (being our Savior and Lord, ruling at God’s right hand, and taking vengeance on the people who do not follow God) when He comes back to Earth (often called Jesus’ second coming).
The Jews were discussing them as prophecies about the coming messiah before Jesus' day.
The reason God gave us the 31 prophecies that have been presented at this web site is to help us identify the Messiah. It is estimated that there were 250 million people alive in the world in A.D. 33 - the year Jesus died. This means that one male out of the 250 million people in A.D. 33 would have had to die that year by crucifixion, be of Jewish descent from King David, be born in Bethlehem, have been a teacher using parables, healed others and performed miracles. He would have had to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, been rejected by the leaders and then died four days later with no broken bones but with pierced feet, hands and side during absolute darkness.
If you would like the most important prophecy about Jesus, it is in Daniel 9:25
Since you don't agree with the ones taken out of stories, here is one that states clearly when the messiah (Anointed One...caps) would come to earth; after Jerusalem is rebuilt.
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33.
link

WWXD?
What would Xenu do?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Rahvin, posted 08-11-2005 12:40 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 96 by Rahvin, posted 08-11-2005 1:54 PM Tal has replied
 Message 97 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-11-2005 2:01 PM Tal has replied
 Message 105 by ramoss, posted 08-11-2005 4:01 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-11-2005 5:30 PM Tal has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 95 of 113 (232316)
08-11-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tal
08-11-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
The Jews were discussing them as prophecies about the coming messiah before Jesus' day.
The Jews of the time, as I understand it, also believed that the Messiah would be a strong military leader who would lead their people to freedom from Roman oppression. This was the general picture painted by those supposed prophesies you have mentioned.
Obviously, if Jesus was the Messiah, then the Jews of the period were wrong. Just like you.
You're using an appeal to authority. "The Jews though it was, so it MUST have been!" When your proposal stands on its own, it is soundly crushed by Jar's additional evidence.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 1:44 PM Tal has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 96 of 113 (232320)
08-11-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tal
08-11-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33.
And yet there is dispute as to the exact date of Jesus birth and death (assuming they happened). Nobody is sure exactly when it happened. Or do you have conclusive evidence to support that Jesus dies exactly in line with your supposed prophesy?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 1:44 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:08 PM Rahvin has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 97 of 113 (232323)
08-11-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tal
08-11-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33.
What a pathetic joke. Let's see what it says before being bastardized ...
Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 1:44 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 98 of 113 (232329)
08-11-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Rahvin
08-11-2005 1:54 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Um...we live in 2005 AD. 2005 years ago Jesus was born. Our whole calander is based on him?
Couple of notes
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful worksa teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called Christus, which means The Messiah) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Also, Jesus had a lot of enemies that were still alive when the gospels were written. As likely as it is that those who were actively trying to eradicate Christianity could have simply written a rebuttal to the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, no such rebuttal writings exist. This seems to suggest that the gospel accounts were considered to be factual. The onus seems to be not on me to produce more documentation of his existance, but on you to prove he didn't.

WWXD?
What would Xenu do?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Rahvin, posted 08-11-2005 1:54 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-11-2005 2:16 PM Tal has replied
 Message 104 by Rahvin, posted 08-11-2005 3:24 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 106 by ramoss, posted 08-11-2005 4:05 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 99 of 113 (232331)
08-11-2005 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ConsequentAtheist
08-11-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
What's your point? In all the versions I read, except yours, the Anoined One is capitalized.
What version are you using? I notice you didn't link to it.
So what's the joke? The math still adds up (assuming you believe the calander year to be accurate).
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-11-2005 02:13 PM

WWXD?
What would Xenu do?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-11-2005 2:01 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 100 of 113 (232332)
08-11-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tal
08-11-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes: ...
Anyone who would reference TF as secular support for the historicity of the Bible is willfully ignorant. Go read something on Josephus before you further embarrass yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:08 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:19 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 101 of 113 (232335)
08-11-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ConsequentAtheist
08-11-2005 2:16 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Anyone who would reference TF as secular support for the historicity of the Bible is willfully ignorant. Go read something on Josephus before you further embarrass yourself.
Pssst..that's why I listed 2 (there are more).
But to give you the benefit of the doubt, your historical document proving that Jesus didn't exist is..?
*EDIT*
Can you provide me with more specifics on Josephus? Fraud? Innacurate?
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-11-2005 02:27 PM

WWXD?
What would Xenu do?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-11-2005 2:16 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by CK, posted 08-11-2005 2:24 PM Tal has not replied
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CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 102 of 113 (232340)
08-11-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tal
08-11-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
quote:
your historical document proving that Jesus didn't exist is..?
Weak...really really weak... asking someone to prove a negative...
is this the best you have?
Remember you have already promised to provide evidence that Jesus did the things you claimed? where is it?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-Aug-2005 02:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:19 PM Tal has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 103 of 113 (232346)
08-11-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tal
08-11-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
quote:
Pssst..that's why I listed 2 (there are more).
  —Tal
No, you quoted two because it was easy to plagiarize. You clearly haven't a clue what you're quoting or what it proves. Your pervasive ignorance is disgraceful. How, for example, does Tacitus prove anything other than his familiarity with Christian mythology? Again: read more, plagiarize less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:19 PM Tal has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 104 of 113 (232380)
08-11-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tal
08-11-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Talopted
Um...we live in 2005 AD. 2005 years ago Jesus was born. Our whole calander is based on him?
You DO realize that the Gregorian Calender, the one we use today, was not adopted until February 1582?
quote:
The Gregorian calendar is the one commonly used today. It was proposed by Aloysius Lilius, a physician from Naples, and adopted by Pope Gregory XIII in accordance with instructions from the Council of Trent (1545-1563) to correct for errors in the older Julian Calendar. It was decreed by Pope Gregory XIII in a papal bull in February 1582.
After 1582 yeears (give or take), I think it would be awfully hard to figure out the exact year of Jesus death. Especially without anything remotely like modern archeology.
Also, Jesus had a lot of enemies that were still alive when the gospels were written. As likely as it is that those who were actively trying to eradicate Christianity could have simply written a rebuttal to the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, no such rebuttal writings exist. This seems to suggest that the gospel accounts were considered to be factual. The onus seems to be not on me to produce more documentation of his existance, but on you to prove he didn't.
If I write a story about counter-terrorism, and I use real-life people like Osama bin-Laden as enemies for my protagonist, does that make my book true? Does it make it even remotely based in reality? Of course not!
Note also that the Catholic Chrurch actively destroyed and/or banned many early Christian writings for their own purposes. It is also conceivable that the Church would falsify or destroy any historical documents they needed in order to keep their position of power. After all, if Jesus didn't exist, the Catholic Church would have lost everything.
What we need, Tal, is conclusive evidence that He DID. And the burden of proof for that is on YOU. You can't ask me to prove a negative - that's impossible.
Also, I'd really like to see your comments about the quote I posted about Mithraism. You seem to have simply ignored it, but Mithraism has existed for a much longer period of time than Christianity. As I recall, some Mithra worship (including all of the very Christian parts) date back around than 800 BC!
I'll post it again here just so you don't miss it.
quote:
For over three hundred years the rulers of the Roman Empire worshipped the god Mithras. Known throughout Europe and Asia by the names Mithra, Mitra, Meitros, Mihr, Mehr, and Meher, the veneration of this god began around 2800 years ago in Persia, where it was soon moved west and became imbedded with Babylonian doctrines. There is mention of Mithra or Mitra (et al) before 2800, but only as a minor diety and without much information. It appears to be after 2800 when Mithra is transformed and starts to play a major role among the gods. The faith spread east through India to China, and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman frontier; from Scotland to the Sahara Desert, and from Spain to the Black Sea. Sites of Mithraic worship have been found in Britain, Italy, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Persia, Armenia, Syria, Israel, and North Africa. In Rome, more than a hundred inscriptions dedicated to Mithra have been found, in addition to 75 sculpture fragments, and a series of Mithraic temples situated in all parts of the city. One of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy now lies under the present site of the Church of St. Clemente, near the Colosseum in Rome. The widespread popularity and appeal of Mithraism as the final and most refined form of pre-Christian paganism was discussed by the Greek historian Herodotus, the Greek biographer Plutarch, the neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry, the Gnostic heretic Origen, and St. Jerome the church Father. Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity. The faithful referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World", symbol of truth, justice, and loyalty. He was mediator between heaven and earth and was a member of a Holy Trinity. According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title 'Mother of God'. The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil. The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness.
Purification through a ritualistic baptism was required of the faithful, who also took part in a ceremony in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of the god. Sundays were held sacred, and the birth of the god was celebrated annually on December the 25th. After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.
And here's the link for additional info.
This appears to show that Christianity is a copy of a previous faith. What say you?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tal, posted 08-11-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-11-2005 4:06 PM Rahvin has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 105 of 113 (232405)
08-11-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tal
08-11-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
You say that the Jews considered them messanci prophecies. Can you ,from a non-messanic Jewish source, show where those passages were prophecies?
The Jewish sources use a different set of passages to define what the Messanic expectations are. Jesus did not meet them.
Here is a list some
quote:
Qualifications
The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not necessarily be limited to, the following:
1. Be the seed (a direct descendant through the unbroken male line) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24)
2. Be a spiritual and military/political leader (e.g., Is 2:3, 11:2; Dan 7:14)
3. Be married and have children during his term (e.g., Ezek 46:16-17)
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated

This message is a reply to:
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