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Author Topic:   For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6265 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 46 of 113 (231544)
08-09-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 4:58 PM


quote:
Well, the guy in the quote I provided was, as I recall, a philosophy professor. Obviously he should stick with that, and leave the probabilities to the math majors.
Yes: leave the math to the math majors. I was thinking the very same thing about the guy I quoted ...
This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 08-09-2005 05:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 4:58 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 5:25 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 5:30 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied
 Message 49 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 5:33 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 47 of 113 (231546)
08-09-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ConsequentAtheist
08-09-2005 5:24 PM


Why? It would be helpful at this stage if instead of a cryptic remark you outline why. While you may argue with Ravhin's conclusions, he generally gives the reader a level of detail to work with. It would be useful if you did the same.

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 48 of 113 (231547)
08-09-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ConsequentAtheist
08-09-2005 5:24 PM


Yes: leave the math to the math majors. I was thinking the very same thing about the guy I quoted ...
By all means, SHOW me where my logic is flawed. I can show you several ways the gentlemen quoted WERE wrong in their probability calculations.
Are you seriously proposing that there is a 1 in 2 chance that God exists? That all other religions throughout history are somehow less likely in the absence of additional evidence?
Please, give us more than a cryptic and insulting one-liner to work with here. Otherwise you're just making personal attacks, a clear violation of the forum rules.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 49 of 113 (231548)
08-09-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ConsequentAtheist
08-09-2005 5:24 PM


Here's my stab (and I'm not a maths wonk
Isn't the problem with the a-priori assignment of a 50% probability that each of these claims is true?
With the evidence at hand (The proper a-priori probability given our ignorance is a very very very small figure - near zero), we have no basis to excluse any of the other concepts in favour of this particular one. Therefore at the outset we must build into our calculation all of the other possible concepts. This gives us an infinite number of concepts?
How did I do?

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 50 of 113 (231552)
08-09-2005 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by CK
08-09-2005 5:33 PM


Re: Here's my stab (and I'm not a maths wonk
sn't the problem with the a-priori assignment of a 50% probability that each of these claims is true?
With the evidence at hand (The proper a-priori probability given our ignorance is a very very very small figure - near zero), we have no basis to excluse any of the other concepts in favour of this particular one. Therefore at the outset we must build into our calculation all of the other possible concepts. This gives us an infinite number of concepts?
That's exactly what I said. I'd really like to know where he thinks I'm mistaken.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 5:33 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 5:40 PM Rahvin has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 51 of 113 (231554)
08-09-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 5:38 PM


Re: Here's my stab (and I'm not a maths wonk
moreover don't we have a problem that we (and forgive me I don't know the right terms) have no way of judging how possible each of the gods is? Would we not need to build this in?

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 52 of 113 (231564)
08-09-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CK
08-09-2005 5:40 PM


Re: Here's my stab (and I'm not a maths wonk
moreover don't we have a problem that we (and forgive me I don't know the right terms) have no way of judging how possible each of the gods is? Would we not need to build this in?
It IS built in. The probability of something existing when there is no evidence to suggest that it does is near-zero. God's existance is just as likely as the existance of the gods of any other religion, or an infinite number of theoretical worlds where no gods exist that similarly have no evidence to support their existance.
Therefore, the existance of a single, all-powerful God is one possibility amongst an infinite number of equal possibilities.
Note that the math in the quote I provided is also wrong, even if you bypass the flawed assumptions - there is a 50% chance that God does not exist - but there is a 97% chance that He was raised from the dead? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

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 Message 51 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 5:40 PM CK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 113 (231604)
08-09-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


Let's take them one at a time.
Most of those are simply quote mining taken out of context.
Begin with Zechariah 9. If you look at the whole thing, any connection with Jesus disappears.
Zechariah 9:
Zechariah 9
Judgment on Israel's Enemies
An Oracle
1 The word of the LORD is against the land of Hadrach
and will rest upon Damascus
for the eyes of men and all the tribes of Israel
are on the LORD[a]
2 and upon Hamath too, which borders on it,
and upon Tyre and Sidon, though they are very skillful.
3 Tyre has built herself a stronghold;
she has heaped up silver like dust,
and gold like the dirt of the streets.
4 But the Lord will take away her possessions
and destroy her power on the sea,
and she will be consumed by fire.
5 Ashkelon will see it and fear;
Gaza will writhe in agony,
and Ekron too, for her hope will wither.
Gaza will lose her king
and Ashkelon will be deserted.
6 Foreigners will occupy Ashdod,
and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.
7 I will take the blood from their mouths,
the forbidden food from between their teeth.
Those who are left will belong to our God
and become leaders in Judah,
and Ekron will be like the Jebusites.
8 But I will defend my house
against marauding forces.
Never again will an oppressor overrun my people,
for now I am keeping watch.
The Coming of Zion's King
9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion!
Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
See, your king [ b] comes to you,
righteous and having salvation,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the war-horses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River [c] to the ends of the earth. [d]
11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.
12 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope;
even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.
13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow
and fill it with Ephraim.
I will rouse your sons, O Zion,
against your sons, O Greece,
and make you like a warrior's sword.
The LORD Will Appear
14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling [e] the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.
17 How attractive and beautiful they will be!
Grain will make the young men thrive,
and new wine the young women.
Even the heading in your own source identifies it as a Judgement on Israel's enemies. Once we reach agreement on this chapter we can move on to the rest.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
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otherguy
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 113 (231616)
08-09-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-09-2005 6:52 PM


Re: Let's take them one at a time.
I know you guys want proof that Jesus existed but you will never find it. As a Christian I know that if they ever find proof of Jesus or God it kinda ruins the whole faith thing and that tottaly kills modern Chritianity. If thats why you can't beleve I understand completly. I just need someone to help me show me the ropes on this site it is very interesting to me
Im the NewBE
Gotta Love ME
This message has been edited by otherguy, 08-09-2005 07:10 PM

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Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 113 (231623)
08-09-2005 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by otherguy
08-09-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Let's take them one at a time.
Welcome to EvC. I too am a Christian and all are welcome here, believers and non-believers.
For a short course on the ropes, there are two basic sections, one strictly science and the other primarily theological. At the end of this message you'll find several links to threads that might make your stay here more enjoyable.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
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otherguy
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 113 (231625)
08-09-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by AdminJar
08-09-2005 7:19 PM


Re: Let's take them one at a time.
Thank You

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otherguy
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 113 (231628)
08-09-2005 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by otherguy
08-09-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Let's take them one at a time.
I have a relevant question. Christianity can't be the only religion that supports itself with a belife in prophecy. What other religions have made predictions and have they come true at least in the minds of its practitioners.

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 58 of 113 (231629)
08-09-2005 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by otherguy
08-09-2005 7:35 PM


Re: Let's take them one at a time.
All? I don't know of any religion where they claim they got it wrong, they tend to just pretend it's a "misunderstanding".

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 59 of 113 (231638)
08-09-2005 7:59 PM


How's this for Christianity?
quote:
For over three hundred years the rulers of the Roman Empire worshipped the god Mithras. Known throughout Europe and Asia by the names Mithra, Mitra, Meitros, Mihr, Mehr, and Meher, the veneration of this god began around 2800 years ago in Persia, where it was soon moved west and became imbedded with Babylonian doctrines. There is mention of Mithra or Mitra (et al) before 2800, but only as a minor diety and without much information. It appears to be after 2800 when Mithra is transformed and starts to play a major role among the gods. The faith spread east through India to China, and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman frontier; from Scotland to the Sahara Desert, and from Spain to the Black Sea. Sites of Mithraic worship have been found in Britain, Italy, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Persia, Armenia, Syria, Israel, and North Africa. In Rome, more than a hundred inscriptions dedicated to Mithra have been found, in addition to 75 sculpture fragments, and a series of Mithraic temples situated in all parts of the city. One of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy now lies under the present site of the Church of St. Clemente, near the Colosseum in Rome. The widespread popularity and appeal of Mithraism as the final and most refined form of pre-Christian paganism was discussed by the Greek historian Herodotus, the Greek biographer Plutarch, the neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry, the Gnostic heretic Origen, and St. Jerome the church Father. Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity. The faithful referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World", symbol of truth, justice, and loyalty. He was mediator between heaven and earth and was a member of a Holy Trinity. According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title 'Mother of God'. The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil. The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness.
Purification through a ritualistic baptism was required of the faithful, who also took part in a ceremony in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of the god. Sundays were held sacred, and the birth of the god was celebrated annually on December the 25th. After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.
Mithra-ism certainly makes the Bible look like a close copy of a much older religion.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6523 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 60 of 113 (231642)
08-09-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 2:58 PM


2 cents
'Left Behind' is so warped!
I heard the radio series, OMG! It's like a Chick tract gone wrong!
Just my 2 cents.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-09-2005 08:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
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