Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,810 Year: 3,067/9,624 Month: 912/1,588 Week: 95/223 Day: 6/17 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 31 of 113 (231484)
08-09-2005 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by CK
08-09-2005 3:37 PM


don't we actually have to see some evidence that he did any of those things before we worry about that bit?
You will.
But let me ask you another question. How do you know George Washington existed and did he really do all that valley forge stuff?
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-09-2005 03:54 PM

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 3:37 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Asgara, posted 08-09-2005 3:44 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 37 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 4:09 PM Tal has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 32 of 113 (231487)
08-09-2005 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tal
08-09-2005 3:40 PM


Argument to the Future
Is this an argument to the future or do you plan on presenting it yourself?

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 3:40 PM Tal has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 33 of 113 (231492)
08-09-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
08-09-2005 3:35 PM


The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy
The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell."
OMG. You did NOT just bring THIS bit of tripe into the argument!
You wouldn't even believe how hard I'm laughing right now.
Here's more of that same logic:
quote:
Math Proves Christ's Resurrection?
It is faith, not proof, that makes Christians believe in Jesus Christ's resurrection, the central tenet of the religion. Until now.
Oxford University professor Richard Swinburne, a leading philosopher of religion, has seemingly done the impossible. Using logic and mathematics, he has created a formula that he says shows a 97 percent certainty that Jesus Christ was resurrected by God the Father, report The Age and Catholic News.
This stunning conclusion was made based on a series of complex calculations grounded in the following logic:
1. The probably of God's existence is one in two. That is, God either exists or doesn't.
2. The probability that God became incarnate, that is embodied in human form, is also one in two.
3. The evidence for God's existence is an argument for the resurrection.
4. The chance of Christ's resurrection not being reported by the gospels has a probability of one in 10.
5. Considering all these factors together, there is a one in 1,000 chance that the resurrection is not true.
"New Testament scholars say the only evidences are witnesses in the four gospels. That's only five percent of the evidence," Swinburne said in a lecture he gave at the Australian Catholic University in Melbourne. "We can't judge the question of the resurrection unless we ask first whether there's reason to suppose there is a God. Secondly, if we have reason to suppose he would become incarnate, and thirdly, if he did, whether he would live the sort of life Jesus did." He says that even Jesus' life is not enough proof. However, the resurrection is "God's signature," which shows "his approval of Jesus' teaching."
The calculations that Swinburne says prove the resurrection are detailed in his book, "The Resurrection of God Incarnate."
The math in these books is total bunk. They assume such things as "the probability of God's existance is 1 in 2." As in He either exists or He doesn't. But that's not the case - Either He exists, or Zeus exists, or there is no God, or there are many gods, or an infinite amount of other possibilities that are equally likely. The actual probability of God's existance is 1 in infinity! And it's circular logic to boot.
Not to mention you are still using a book to prove itself. If a book fulfills its own prophecies, that's not so impressive - I can write a book that makes some predictions, and in the sequel I can write in the fulfillment of those "prophecies." It still doesns't prove that they actually happened, or if the characters even exist at all.
He fulfilled more than 8. To keep this in perspective, we are talking about specifics, such as riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, thirst while being executed and given vinegar, people casting lots for his clothes, being betrayed by a close friend, being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, that silver used to buy a potter's field, being buried in a richman's grave....so on and so forth.
All written in the same book as the prophecies themselves. You need supporting evidence Tal. You need to prove that these prophecies applied to Jesus, that Jesus even existed, that Jesus did the things in the prophecies you apply to Him... A book can SAY whatever the author wants, Tal. Until there is outside supporting evidence, the book is nothing but a fairy tale. Faith is all well and good, but it doesn't hold up in a debate where evidence is required.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 3:35 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 4:01 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 40 by randman, posted 08-09-2005 4:26 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 44 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-09-2005 4:55 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 113 (231493)
08-09-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


My take on the Bible is; it was written by man to control man and has no supernatural involvement. I will review your examples of prophecies fulfilled. I will need to do a little refreshing, as I have not studied this info for a while now. Also I have not read my book, Who Wrote the Bible and Jesus, is he a Pagan God (at work book not with me, title could be wrong). As far as my research into the subject has showed no historical evidence of Jesus existence. I have stated on the other thread what my personal feeling about Jesus is. I would like to know what Archeological evidence exist.
I would say some of the cities would be found to be in existence. As it is the history of a people and their beliefs, that their God helped them to conquer other people.
Authorship? Elaborate.
The winners write history.
Manuscripts? Elaborate.
Ask the Germans, their history books reflect an entirely different story than ours do about WWII. Who writes History and are they not biased towards their own beliefs or society.
As I said before I used to be Christian, I never felt a magical/spiritual event at all. I was once Wiccian and again never felt spiritual or connected to a deity. I have asked Jesus to answer me that I am wrong in believing in evolution, to save me if I am walking down the wrong road. No answer has come. You are not my answer as this is not how I asked to be showed. You are telling me why you believe. Maybe I will change my mind but I doubt it.
A bit off topic, but people say evolutionist are indoctrinated. I disagree, people are indoctrinated into religion. It's what your parents believe and pass that off on you, your entire life. My mom took me to church and Sunday school when I was young. My wife and her mom do the same to her daughter. They have her pray and mark a cross on her pillow and read her children’s stories about god. I don't say anything about it, as it is her daughter. My wife is carrying our son and I will refuse to let him be brainwashed before he can think for himself. Once I myself started to question things I came to realize something smelled funny and asked why. I have become as far as I am concerned a freethinker, not indoctrinated or brain washed any longer. I have no doubt evolution has occurred, I still have a few questions, but for the most part I am content with my knowledge of what is the truth. You may argue that the children have not been brain washed, if that is the case then why has every civilization, held the same beliefs? Romans, Greeks, different Tribes of Indians, Japanese, Chinese (small villages inside), Catholic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu the list goes on and on. Now sometimes when the children grow up they realize the wool has been pulled over their eyes and become freethinkers maybe they change religions or realize evolution has taken place by the large amount of evidence that supports it. But now we have Christian missionaries spreading the word of their chosen God and changing their entire beliefs and culture. Is this right?

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 35 of 113 (231494)
08-09-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 3:58 PM


Until there is outside supporting evidence, the book is nothing but a fairy tale.
That will be covered in 1-4, and I'll repost 5 when I make that topic.

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 3:58 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 4:04 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 4:14 PM Tal has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 36 of 113 (231496)
08-09-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tal
08-09-2005 4:01 PM


That will be covered in 1-4, and I'll repost 5 when I make that topic.
And what about the rest of my post? Is that a concession?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 4:01 PM Tal has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 37 of 113 (231500)
08-09-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tal
08-09-2005 3:40 PM


quote:
But let me ask you another question. How do you know George Washington existed and did he really do all that valley forge stuff?
Dunno -I'm a brit, my american history is roppy - tell you what you provide some convincing evidence for your claim and we can discuss it.
hot damn - I know this is a classic Fallacy but I cannot remember the name? anyone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 3:40 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 4:31 PM CK has not replied
 Message 43 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 4:35 PM CK has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 38 of 113 (231504)
08-09-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tal
08-09-2005 4:01 PM


I bet the examples for 1-4 have never been seen before!
I hope to God that you have better academic sources than Josh MacDowell!
This message has been edited by Brian, 08-09-2005 04:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 4:01 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 4:23 PM Brian has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 39 of 113 (231510)
08-09-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Brian
08-09-2005 4:14 PM



"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 4:14 PM Brian has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 40 of 113 (231512)
08-09-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 3:58 PM


no, that's incorrect
They assume such things as "the probability of God's existance is 1 in 2." As in He either exists or He doesn't. But that's not the case - Either He exists, or Zeus exists, or there is no God, or there are many gods, or an infinite amount of other possibilities that are equally likely.
The probability for an either/or question like this is 50/50. He exists or does not.
Then, you can calculate what type of God exists, and get into what you are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 3:58 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 4:34 PM randman has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 113 (231515)
08-09-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by CK
08-09-2005 4:09 PM


Weak analogy seems closest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 4:09 PM CK has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 113 (231517)
08-09-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by randman
08-09-2005 4:26 PM


Re: no, that's incorrect
quote:
The probability for an either/or question like this is 50/50.
This is false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by randman, posted 08-09-2005 4:26 PM randman has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 43 of 113 (231518)
08-09-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by CK
08-09-2005 4:09 PM


hot damn - I know this is a classic Fallacy but I cannot remember the name? anyone?
Red Herring, I believe.
The existance or nonexistance of George Washington is wholly irrelevant to the existance or nonexistance of Jesus.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 4:09 PM CK has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 44 of 113 (231530)
08-09-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 3:58 PM


quote:
The math in these books is total bunk. They assume such things as "the probability of God's existance is 1 in 2." As in He either exists or He doesn't. But that's not the case - Either He exists, or Zeus exists, or there is no God, or there are many gods, or an infinite amount of other possibilities that are equally likely. The actual probability of God's existance is 1 in infinity! And it's circular logic to boot.
That is an amazing argument (in favor of the need for improved math education).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 3:58 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 4:58 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 45 of 113 (231532)
08-09-2005 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ConsequentAtheist
08-09-2005 4:55 PM


That is an amazing argument (in favor of the need for improved math education).
Well, the guy in the quote I provided was, as I recall, a philosophy professor. Obviously he should stick with that, and leave the probabilities to the math majors.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-09-2005 4:55 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-09-2005 5:24 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024