EvC Forum: How does science disprove the Bible?

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Topic: How does science disprove the Bible?

ICANT

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Message 107 of 310 (409092)
07-07-2007 10:45 AM

Reply to: Message 89 by sidelined
07-06-2007 11:05 PM

This is planetary destruction unlike anything ever described before.

sidelined, if Isaiah 38:8 was a miracle and took place in One Planck time, Who would have noticed the event other than the one looking for it?

Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 89 by sidelined, posted 07-06-2007 11:05 PM		sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 108 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2007 11:22 AM	ICANT has replied
	Message 110 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 12:20 PM	ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 111 of 310 (409113)
07-07-2007 12:22 PM

Reply to: Message 108 by sidelined
07-07-2007 11:22 AM

Re-Time

LOL
In one Planck time even the guy looking would miss it.

I know he would not see it happen only the results of the sun being in a different place that it was moments ago.

But with only 10 degrees no one else would notice the difference because they would not be looking for the event.

Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 108 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2007 11:22 AM		sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 118 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2007 3:32 PM		ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 112 of 310 (409115)
07-07-2007 12:40 PM

Reply to: Message 110 by iceage
07-07-2007 12:20 PM

Re-long day

King Hezekiah would have to be a very observant fellow to take notice.

Hezekiah would have only saw the results, not what was taking place.

Well there is this and also Joshua's Long Day.

What is wrong with there being a miracle of a long day.

1Joh 1:5 (KJV) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Since God is light He could appear and we would have no darkness.

Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 110 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 12:20 PM		iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 116 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 1:59 PM	ICANT has replied
	Message 117 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 2:32 PM	ICANT has not replied

ICANT

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Message 133 of 310 (409194)
07-07-2007 10:22 PM

Reply to: Message 116 by iceage
07-07-2007 1:59 PM

Re: Re-long day

And just how does planck time or any other pseudoscience explanations help you out here?

I was just refering to sidelined's statement: Message 89

quote:
This is planetary destruction unlike anything ever described before.

If God did it in one planck time there would be no time for all those things to happen.

With the shadow returning only 10 degrees, who would notice other than someone that was told it was going to happen.

So do you believe that John 1:5 was referring to physical light.

Reve 21:23 (KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

We won't need the sun or the moon in the New heaven and earth God the Son is the light of it.

So what would be the problem with God supplying Joshua extra light.
We light up areas today and build buildings, roads and other things with artifical light. What is the big deal with having a battlefield engulfed in light. NFL does it all the time.

Ummm.... altering the rotation of the earth would have several disastrous consequences that would tend to get noticed. Oh but one could also accelerate the sun and planets and leave the earth alone. This would also have several disastrous consequences that would tend to get noticed.

Who said anything about altering the rotation of the earth. God could have flipped a switch like they do every monday night on NFL Monday Night Football and said fight on.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 116 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 1:59 PM		iceage has replied

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	Message 134 by anglagard, posted 07-07-2007 10:48 PM	ICANT has not replied
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ICANT

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Message 136 of 310 (409197)
07-07-2007 11:12 PM

Reply to: Message 118 by sidelined
07-07-2007 3:32 PM

Re: Re-Time

You really do not think through the consequence of your statements ICANT because if you did you would realize that you have just said that the sun had taken a movement back along its path equivalent to nearly 1/20 of its entire horizon to horizon movement through the sky. { 180 degrees divided by 10 degrees}

If the sun took a 10 degree movement back along its path it takes around the milky way, who would notice?

If the earth reversed so as to move the shadow of the sun 10 degrees that would amount to about 36 minutes average.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 118 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2007 3:32 PM		sidelined has replied

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	Message 160 by sidelined, posted 07-08-2007 2:08 AM	ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 137 of 310 (409198)
07-07-2007 11:23 PM

Reply to: Message 135 by iceage
07-07-2007 11:11 PM

Re: Re-long day

"The sun stood still

I thought the sun stood still as far as the earth is concerned all the time.

I know it is traveling around our galaxy.

But the earth does go around the sun, right.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 135 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 11:11 PM		iceage has replied

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ICANT

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Message 173 of 310 (409248)
07-08-2007 9:37 AM

Reply to: Message 160 by sidelined
07-08-2007 2:08 AM

Re: Re-Time

If you are trying to argue that this is not a noticeable difference then I am afraid you have shot yourself in the foot.

I am not trying to argue anything. I am simply stating some things that pop in my head.

I will now make an argument.

We are talking about a MIRACLE if I remember correctly.

God who spoke the universe into existence in Genesis 1:1 would not be limited in POWER.

You want to limit the amount of power God has.

If God could create the universe and everything in it He could stop it on a dime and give you nine cents change and nothing be out of place for having stopped. He could keep it standing still for 1,000 years of our time if He so desired.

If He so desired He could make it run backwards. You have a very small view of who God is.

Matt 5:35 (KJV) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

The earth is God's footstool, that is how big our earth is to God, He could kick it around like a football.

Some here are always talking about the genocide of God.

Sodom and Gomorra destroyed by fire and brimstone.

All those who are not written in the Lambs Book of Life, cast into the lake of fire.

Somebody somewhere has gotten the mistaken idea that God is some boy scout that is there to help everyone across the street.

God is a just God, He made the rules, and if you break the rules you pay the price.

There is a saying "If you can't do the time don't do the crime".

God made an escape for everyone who would believe and trust in the sacrifice of His only begotten Son on the Cross for the sins of the world. John 3:16-18

God says: "To me belongeth vengance". Deut 32:35

Science cannot prove where the universe came from nor can it prove where life came from. Therefore everything after that is based on a hypothesis that cannot be proven.

And you guys are arguing that the Genesis account of creation is false.

It is no more false than what you believe.

The consequences of what you believe if wrong is the lake of fire.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 160 by sidelined, posted 07-08-2007 2:08 AM		sidelined has not replied

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	Message 185 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 1:01 PM	ICANT has replied
	Message 188 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 1:55 PM	ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 189 of 310 (409309)
07-08-2007 3:31 PM

Reply to: Message 185 by iceage
07-08-2007 1:01 PM

Re: Genesis is a Myth

Do really believe that God is recruiting only those who can deceive themselves for primarily selfish reasons? Oh and BTW, you think you have the winning ticket, but if you are not Muslim,Catholic, Mormon, etc. you are going to their version of the lake of fire.

That is the big problem everybody cannot be right.

John 14:6 (KJS) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Sounds like there is only one way and you had better find the right one.

ICANT writes:
And you guys are arguing that the Genesis account of creation is false.

Yup. I think you got it.

iceage if you or anyone else on this site has any proof that Genesis 1:1 is false please present it now.

There is absolutely no proof Genesis 1:1 is not true.

It has nothing to do with plants, animals, fowl, fishes or man.

It states: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

You declared it to be false now, prove it to be scientifically false.

Consider to what end these miracles are. God halts the earth from spinning, the moon in its orbit just so that his chosen race can kill their enemies (women and children included) using crude implements of war. It is absurd and outrageous.

1Chr 21:15 (KJV) And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem.

Gene 19:24 (KJV) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

God sent two angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to get Lot out so He could destroy it.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 185 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 1:01 PM		iceage has replied

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	Message 190 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 4:19 PM	ICANT has replied
	Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2007 9:58 AM	ICANT has replied
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ICANT

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Message 191 of 310 (409313)
07-08-2007 4:28 PM

Reply to: Message 188 by Chiroptera
07-08-2007 1:55 PM

Re: Re-Time

Hi Chiroptera.

For instance, it is granted that an omnipotent god could have created the universe all at once (or during a seven day time period) only 6000 years ago. But what would such a created universe look like? Well, for starters, since this god could have just snapped her fingers and created all the rocks all at once, I would expect that radiometric dating would consistently give dates less than 6000 years for all the rocks. Instead, we see dating that is so consistent that we can reconstruct a four and a half billion year history of the earth. Creationists try to argue about "changing rates of radioactive decay", but this really makes no sense -- why would a god, who can do anything, so such a complicated, non-intuitive manner, especially since this very method, our omniscient god knows, will mislead people into coming to an incorrect conclusion?

I will try and break this paragraph down, as far as Joe I am not interested.

For instance, it is granted that an omnipotent god could have created the universe all at once

This is what I believed happened as stated in Genesis 1:1.

(or during a seven day time period) only 6000 years ago.

I have never claimed the earth to be young and never will.
I believe the earth to be much older than that. I even think it to possibly be much older than science can prove it to be today.

Genesis 1:1 simply says "in the beginning", whenever that was.

Creationists try to argue about "changing rates of radioactive decay",

I am a creationist and that would be a stupid argument.

Let me propose a hypothetical: and put it as a question.

If Genesis 1:1 took place 13.7 billion years ago.
Then 5 billion years ago the earth melted with fervent heat. (everything became molten lava)
The earth then cooled over a period of time.
Would there be any trace of what happened on earth before the meltdown and would it be possible to date the rock past the meltdown?

why would a god,

Ask God that one when you see Him.

Why would someone just accept such a miraculous occurrence without evidence

It is easy for me to believe in miracles, because I believe Genesis 1:1 to be a fact. You say but there is no proof.

You believe magic (singularity from nowhere out of nothing, big bang) universe comes into existence. I say but there is no proof.

We both have the same evidence.

The universe exists.
Earth exists.
It did happen.
We just disagree on how it did happen.
One of us is right, the other is wrong.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 188 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 1:55 PM		Chiroptera has replied

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	Message 192 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 4:42 PM	ICANT has not replied
	Message 201 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 6:05 PM	ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 194 of 310 (409318)
07-08-2007 5:06 PM

Reply to: Message 190 by iceage
07-08-2007 4:19 PM

Re: Genesis is a Myth

I can prove that the details of Genesis are not true.

You know my stand on Genesis 1:2-2:3. It did not happen in the same timeframe as Gensis 1:1. It was a much later date.

So then if you can prove the details of the account in Genesis 2:4-4:26 are not true I would like to see the proof.

Just what is your point?

That God did not have to make the day longer.
He could have sent an angel or fire and brimstone.

This is a vision of a superhero warrior God that can be matched by technology.

I read previous verses and I could not find where Judah was supposed to conquer the valley. In fact I could not find where he was supposed to be there at all.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 190 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 4:19 PM		iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 196 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 5:29 PM	ICANT has replied
	Message 197 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 5:44 PM	ICANT has not replied

ICANT

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Message 207 of 310 (409348)
07-08-2007 8:58 PM

Reply to: Message 196 by iceage
07-08-2007 5:29 PM

Re: Genesis is a Myth

Genesis 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

So what is the problem with that?

Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

So what is the problem with that?

Genesis 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman later as an after thought.

So what is the problem with that?
I think if you read the scripture it says she was made as a help meet for the man.

Genesis 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.

So what is the problem with that? He did die that same day.

Break out the mental twister board and spin the dial.

God has been with me for 58 years, but there have been many times I messed up because I was doing something God wasn't pleased with.

I am having a hard time finding any proof that Genesis account 2:4-4:26 is false. I read a lot of statements which are exactly what the account says. But I see no proof they are false.

Are you saying they are false becaue you say they are false?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 196 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 5:29 PM		iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 208 by Coragyps, posted 07-08-2007 9:03 PM	ICANT has replied
	Message 211 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 9:39 PM	ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 209 of 310 (409350)
07-08-2007 9:24 PM

Reply to: Message 204 by Straggler
07-08-2007 7:51 PM

Re: Prediction

Nobody has ever predicted anything, never mind anything specific and measuarable, using the bible that was not a subjective interpretation post the event in question.

Straggler, I predict according to the Bible that if you die without accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you will bow at His feet one day and confess that He is Lord.

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If that does not happen, you win.

That is the ultimate test as to the Bible being false or true.

Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 204 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2007 7:51 PM		Straggler has replied

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ICANT

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Message 210 of 310 (409351)
07-08-2007 9:27 PM

Reply to: Message 208 by Coragyps
07-08-2007 9:03 PM

Re: Genesis is a Myth

They are contrary to what we observe!!!!!! That's what's wrong with them!

So then you have a date for Genesis 1:1.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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	Message 208 by Coragyps, posted 07-08-2007 9:03 PM		Coragyps has not replied

ICANT

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Message 216 of 310 (409357)
07-08-2007 9:56 PM

Reply to: Message 201 by Chiroptera
07-08-2007 6:05 PM

Re: An explanation of the attempted point.

I am wondering why the miracle explanation is even a serious contender as a possibility.

If it was not a miracle it could not have happened.
sidelined explained that pretty well.

We are bound by the laws of gravity and physics.

God the creator is not bound by laws He made. He could suspend any law He desired to.

Chiroptera, a miracle is no more of a big deal to me than someone telling a lie. In other words I have no problem believing God can do anything He desires.

BTW Sorry if I was putting words in your mouth earlier, I was just going on what I have gathered from your posts in the threads I have posted in.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 201 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 6:05 PM		Chiroptera has replied

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	Message 246 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2007 11:35 AM		ICANT has not replied

ICANT

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Message 222 of 310 (409366)
07-08-2007 10:49 PM

Reply to: Message 211 by iceage
07-08-2007 9:39 PM

Re: Genesis is a Myth

The order is contrary to the evidence that the fossil record, geological record and molecular biology demonstrate.

That is easy to say.

But you still haven't told me when Genesis 1:1 took place.
Until you could do that you cannot prove we are talking about the same events or time frame.

You see my problem is I believe Genesis 1:1 took place a long time ago. Everything in Genesis 2:4-4:26 took place the same day as it claims in Genesis 2:4. You say no way, that covers too many years.
Well there was no night created yet so there was only light. There was no time as there was nothing to mark time. So for a very long extended time there was only day. Something happened and then we find the earth in the mess it is in in Genesis 1:2 and then we have the 7 days of Moses.

In Message 191 I proposed a hypothetical no one comented.

So I ask again.

I really doubt you have objective and rationally "looked for proof that Genesis is false".

There is no proof only suggestions and accertions.

Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 211 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 9:39 PM		iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 227 by iceage, posted 07-09-2007 1:19 AM		ICANT has replied

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