The flood, and meat eating.

That is just ridiculous. First, the bible dosn't say this, you are putting this into the book. Wouldn't this count as a SECOND creation?The bible says god created it once, and only once. It is stupid to infer that somehow he reverse engeneered everything. If he did, such a major event would have been noted. It wasn't. Me thinks you are apealing to Magic.Personaly, I'm a last thursdayist. I belive god created everything the way it is today, last thursday afternoon.

That was a very informative post Arachnophilia.I was mostly amazed at randmans assertion that somehow God threw stuff into reverse, changed it, then set the present going again. I can conseed the idea that perhapse the myths lead in the direction of stuff changing after the fall.In any case, the level of changes required is astounding. It seems to me a waste of gods resources

AH! I see it now!Brilliant!The flood provides the magical change point.So the kinds get off the boat, breed like crazy, and create all sorts of wacky carnivorus offspring!....Although... God tells noah that he can go ahead and eat the animals... wouldn't that be dangerous considering that he would be basicaly ending a species? Well... hes got 7 clean, so I guess thats ok, still I wonder how he sustains himself in the years when the world is recovering from mass animal migration, salt water inundation, and a dyoff in vegitation.

The wiki suggests that flytraps may catch only a few insects over a lifetime, yet it does need the extra nutrients: The article seems to imply that flytraps may still get along without catching insects.I think a better example of your point would be the pitcher plant:Pitcher plant - WikipediaIt is a much more succesfull "hunter" and much of its diet is insects.

Ya I know! Isn't that awsome?It's a complex system of hydrolics and specialized cells. Though the specifics are still unknown.The first thing I thought when I read that was: "Wow, nature invented the double-click!"hehehe

Did you not read the article? They grow in nitrogen poor environments. Nitrogen is the cornerstone of plant neutrition.While the plant may survive for a good while not catching insects, it will probably be a very unhealthy specimin, and I don't doubt that it's lifespan will likely be shortend.He who breeds survives. Obviously, those flytraps that catch insects live longer, are healthier, therefore they reproduce more often and more effectively.It is not a novelty, but a survival mechanism. Put it to you this way, you probably don't use your sense of smell everyday to ensure your survival. Heck, humans have one of the most underdeveloped senses of smell in the animal kingdom, is our nose a novelty?

I humbly conceed.I think I actually confused that article with this one:Botanical Society of Americawhich states:

Yes it is germain. The changes that need to take place in order to "rewire" and "replumb" all of the carnivors on earth for meat eating would essentially require God to issue a massive recall and essentially rebuild the darn things from scratch.Also, if there was no death, what did all the bacteria eat? And how come they didn't overpopulate to unmanagable proportions?Heck, what about the bacteria in our stomachs? Such over-reproduction could kill a man.

Why do we assume that god is 'outside of time'? He made the world in Six days. Those are units of time, infact I don't think anywhere in the bible does it ever say that god travels thrugh time.Furthermore quantum mechanics has nothing to do with an imaterial, supernatural diety described in a 2000 year old manuscript. The people who pened that manuscript had no concept of the structure of the solar system let alone something as complex as quantum physics. Because this is how bacteria work. We need them to digest food as well.The only reason you want to assume that they werent is because you want to belive in a god. Thats not assumption, it's fact. We havent seen carnivores backtrack and become herbivores. Time is a forward continum and time travel is a logical and physical imposibility.And no, unless you can show me a bible verse where it says god went back in time, I'm not buying that god is a time traveler.

But don't you understand that the 'code changes' required amount to scraping everything and starting over?I mean, instead you have god traveling back in time, redoing his creation, then speeding up to the present in order to change things to meat eating?Why is god being so hard on himself? I mean, he knew they were gonna fall anyway. It sure seems god is acting a bit Rube Goldberg about all this creation buissnes. This message has been edited by Yaro, 07-26-2005 06:41 PM

I don't mean hard in the sense that it is difficult for him, I mean it in the sense that he is going thrugh alot of unecessary steps. He is taking dozens of extra steps to reach a predetermined goal. He must be bound by time since god is temporal in the bible. He creates the world in six days, he exiles the jews for fourty years, there are numerous accounts of god being patient, of god waiting, of god changing his mind. How is god 'outside of time' when he is so clearly defined in temporal terms? Right, so you are saying that there are billions of possible gods in all of these possible universes?Besides the multi-verse is not a proven theory. So, god is still contingent on existence. He still needs 'this universe' to exist. Meaning that there are multiple version of god in all the billions of 'non-fallen' universes.Sounds to me like not only is god bound by time, but he is also bound by QM.This message has been edited by Yaro, 07-26-2005 07:44 PM

Im sorry, let me explain what I mean more clearly. I didn't mean to write the last post so quickly, but see if you can follow me on this:God changes his mind right? I mean, he gets angry, people interceed and calm him (moses), god makes choices etc. etc. None of these things could happen if god was not bound by time. To have change (emotions) you need time. Therefore god is affected by time, i.e. bound by it.As far as gods existence relying on QM. God created QM, right? But by your argument, god is contingent on QM. His choices are probability waveforms right? The way he views the future is in those waveforms right?Well that means that where we are today is one solution to one waveform. This means that there are dozens of other waveform solutions existing in parallel with ours (multi-verse). This means multiple gods in each universe. And the god we have here with us today, is one of those gods, following one waveform solution.Now, if you say God is not bound by QM, you get into an infinite regression problem. Essentialy, god creating existance, yet relying on existance to exist?Look at existance as a thing, a force in nature. God created everything right? Thus he created existance, because if he didn't he wouldn't be all powerfull, but then how could he create existance, if he himself must exist to create it?This message has been edited by Yaro, 07-26-2005 08:09 PM

So god is impersonal? He has no huamnly concivable emotions? Then how are we to realate to him? QM and Multi-verse theorize that ALL potential universes coexist. If you are going with the idea of multi-verse then you have to deal with the fact that there are dozens of non-fall universes. All possible universes coexist.Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia Continuing: There cannot be a set potential of choices, there are an infinte potential of choices. If god can affect them, he must be affected by them by deffinition. Obviously he is affected by our choices. How can he have a causal relationship to a universe that has no affect on him? This makes no sense. It is not fallacious, does he or dosn't he exist? If he does, then this means he is contingent on existance to exist. Nothing can exist if existance dosn't exist

Hey Randman,If you are interested in discusing these QM/reality/God/Time Travel ideas, open up another thread. I will be happy to continue our discussion there.I think Ringo is right that we are essentially going off on a tangent with all this stuff.