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Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
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Author | Topic: the forgery of deuteronomy | |||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
in the bible, in the book of kings, a scroll comes to the attention of king josiah, who reforms the church and state to fit its precepts. these include limiting worship to one specific place (the temple in jerusalem) and destorying all sorts of things that could be idols (including the bronze serpent made by moses). it is clear by the reformations josiah makes, and the textual links, that he's reading deuteronomy. it is also clear that book of kings passes judgement on every king mentioned according to the standards set forth in the book of deuteronomy. because the israelites (northern kingdom) have split from the judeans (southern kingdom) and have erected their own places of worship starting with jeroboam, every northern king is judged as sinful.
between two newly separated countries, it becomes increasingly obvious that these books have political motivation. and so when the priest find the scroll of deutoronomy, which validates their judgement of the north, it's all too convenient. deuteronomy also says a few suspicious things. the name for the book comes from this passage:
quote: copy of the law, or second law, in greek is "deuteronomy." it's the first time that hebrews have mention of a kingdom or throne in the bible. the book also contains the first (only?) mention that god can only be worshipped in one place. this means that people before the time of josiah didn't know about the text at all -- the system of provincial judges instead of kings, multiple temples -- all indicate no prior knowledge of the text. it also makes sure to mention the golden calf -- something duplicated by jeroboam. so, the question is: is deutoronomy a forgery from the time of josiah, designed to malign the north? and if so, does this affect its role in the bible, or its meaning?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Though the "book of the law" was found during the reign of Josiah it was, ironically, your earlier referenced king Hezekiah who beat to bits the bronze serpent (II Kings 18:4). i see, that must have been it. i'm a little behind on my reading, and it was just an idea i came across. probably should have studied it a bit more before posting.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
well, if deuteronomy was written during the reign of josiah, i think the levite traditions were already established by then, so it might be other way around.
but i'm nowhere close to sure on either (especially not on leviticus) so i could be wrong. either way, it's just a quibble. i don't think moses wrote either book.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
That happens to be an unanswerable question, if you are wanting a concrete factual answer. well i was looking for either opinions or more information. the information i've seen strongly suggests that it is a forgery, but it's not impossible for it to be legit.
My point is simply that it wouldn't, or shouldn't, change the way we believe, because we do not practice the OT. i'm not entirely sure i agree, but i guess i'll come back to it.
There are 4 authors of the Pentateuch which include: Yahwehist, Elohim, Deuteromistic, and Priestly writers. j,e,d,p. you forgot h, the holiness code (levitical authors). also, this is only my thought, but i think the places where god is called "el" or "el shaddai" are probably by a separate set of authors. they would probably fragments of the oldest form of judaism. it's also arguable that joshua should be included, based on style. i guess the more formal rendering of my question is "did the deuteronomist(s) write much later than previously thought?"
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Unless you are an Israelite, you can't be serious. God chose the Israelites to be His children, and gave them Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. The Old Testament laws were there to be obeyed by the Israelites only, not by Gentiles. that logic doesn't actually hold up, because people are now allowed to become jewish. but something very similar does hold up: the ten commandment are not commandments, per se. they are terms of an agreement. it's a form ancient form of treaty, called a suzeranty treaty. the suzeran (god) is the more powerful individual/country, and applies its terms to the weaker power (israel). these agreements open with a statement "because i did this, you have to do this for me" in other words, the ten commandments don't even apply unless god brought your family out of egypt.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
How interesting that you would think no gentile obeyed God's law. no, it's a subtle distinction. gentiles are not HELD to the law. the law is a set of terms that makes the israelites god's people, because he brought them out of egypt. and uhh, back on topic please. this has nothing to do with the date of deuteronomy. This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-10-2004 02:26 AM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Israelite and Jew are the same, it is a state of mind. israelite: someone from israel.jew: someone from judah. hebrew: someone who follows the judaic faith: belief in yhwh. Jew is also a nationality as in Israeli. ever read the book of chronicles? kings? the two were separate nations for a long, long time.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i'm speaking strictly in terms of the bible, not modern times.
words change meaning.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I find nothing dated in the scriptures. look harder. ezekiel has a word in it that in modern hebrew means "electricity." do you think ezekiel meant electricity?
The difference between the meaning of Iraeli vs. Israelite is as timeless as the God who created it. israel/judah used to be theocracies. the people who lead the country lead the religion as well. if you were an israelite, you were hebrew. the two took on the same meaning. now, there are athiest, christian, and muslim israeli's, but israelite still has the connotation of the older word, even though it just means someone from israel. both as just funny english translations anyways. the way to say "israelite" in hebrew is "ben'yisrael" or "son of israel" so LITERALLY an israelite is someone descended from jacob.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If you are Christ's, you are Abraham's seed and an Israelite and son of Jacob. depends on how literally you read it. but i don't think the israelis would appreciate christians call themselves israelites.
The people who led the country didn't have a clue as to what they were supposed to do as the chosen nation. They were an utter failure. depends on which book you read.
Please understand, I am not dismissing what you know to be truth for you, it just does not co-incite with a few decades of intensive study and still going on. intensive study in what exactly? because this is pretty basic...
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Good news, I don't think Christ cares too deeply about what the 'chosen people' appreciate and what not. listen, you either believe the bible or you don't. the bible calls israel god's chosen people. respect that, or don't call yourself a believer.
The chosen people were chosen to take Jehovah God to all the nations of the world. that wasn't the promise i read in genesis or exodus. and that's not the promise that's causing wars in israel and palestine even today. and his name is not jehovah.
And he is not for those who don't, pretty much meaning most Jews so you're saying that god broke his promise? that's blasphemy, buddy.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
yes, thank you. that's what i'm getting at.
it's silly that we have to quibble over the difference between and israelite, a judean or jew, and a hebrew. and george's remarks came off as somewhat anti-semitic on top of it.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
no. you said that god broke his promise. that's blasphemy. and your reply was antisemitic and morally repugnant.
and no, you are not my buddy.
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