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Author Topic:   Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 87 of 108 (229951)
08-04-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-24-2005 7:55 AM


Exodus facts and legend
One thing that I think most of us can agree on is that the Exodus story which was probably written in the 8th-6th century BC, was likely a compiolation of different facts and then embelished upon and attributed to the Hebrew people in many cases. The names and nations mentioned in the OT were real and historical, but they were often converged into different time periods and eras to describe different geographical settings. Thus, the "Way of the Philistines" given as a route god didn't want for the Exodus through Sinai, and Gaza, obviously shows us that if the Exodus did take place in the 1400's bc, the story was later edited by scribes who didn't know that the Philistines and other sea go-ers arrived in 1200, not 1400bc.
Little tidbits of this sort of editing are shown all through out the bible. Even with all of this, I believe that the stories are a collective fact fiction--historical places and stories that were based on real settings and historic figures--but greatly embelished and given credit to the Hebrews/Israelites.
The Exodus legend most likely was based on the simple trade and commune between semetic peoples and Egypt. The Semetic Hyksos dynasties of Egypt and the Story of Joseph and Jacob[c.1700-1500bc], show some correlation and historical truth. The Idea of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, shows us a convulge of different facts and stories. There were a people called "Habiru", mentioned frequently in the Amarna letters (c.1400 bc)who were runaway slaves attacking Canaanite strongholds (vassals to Egypt). There is a considerable bit of evidence that could show us that the Conquest legend mentioned in the OT, was based on the Habiru slaves attacking these canaanite strongholds in c. 1400-1350bc, and later sites such as Hisban(1200bc) etc. may not have been destroyed till 200 years later when Israel, was mentioned for the first time as a nation in the Merneptah Stele. Thus the "Conquest" really may have been a 200+ year tribal war the Habiru who later became known as "Israel" declared against the Canaanites.
Perhaps some of the classical exaggerations of the Exodus are the numbers given which describe thousands of men. Numbers were very often symbolic, not literal. 3,6,7, and 40 were just some of the sacred numbers. The 2.5 million Israelites wandering in the desert are so much of an exaggeration it is quite laughable. I have calculated that there may have been as many as 25,000 Israelites when entering Canaan, but this is truly an enormous number in a barren waterless desert such as Sinai/Negev. Before the Census of Numbers 1. The Book of Exodus mentions "600,000 men on foot" in the hebrew exodus from egypt. This is obviously a mistranslation on the copyists part or just part of an oral exaggeration. Obviously 6,000, or more realisticly 600 men were first intedned. Let's say there were 600 men, that would give an entire Exodus population of 2,400-3,000--Satisfyingly realistic enough.
I have recently been in a crowd of 2,000 people in a fundraiser walk, and just being among that number makes me think of how difficult it would be to keep everyone under control, giving each person enough food and water. 2 million would be impossible.
Whatever the case, if it was 2,400 or 24,000 Israelites, it seems very possible such an Exodus could have happened. There would be many starving people, and infant deaths among these nomads, but I think that these hardships are described in The books of the OT.
Therefore, one could say that the exodus from egypt to Canaan of semetic peoples who later became known as Habiru/Israel, of several tribes numbering ~3,000 among an "unknown multitude", could have occured. And it probably did in my opinion. There is too much historical/legendary evidence to refute these kernals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 7:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-05-2005 12:34 PM John Williams has not replied
 Message 90 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 12:42 PM John Williams has not replied
 Message 98 by Brian, posted 08-06-2005 5:55 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 93 of 108 (230273)
08-05-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
08-05-2005 1:49 PM


Re: Re:Habiru
Exactly.
Infact, the Habiru could have been applied to really any ethnic group in the fertile crescent. Khabiru, Habiru, Apiru etc. were vague names that indicated outcasts,nomadic, collective vagabonds, mercenaries, slaves etc.
Wikipedia.org has a good article about the Habiru:
Habiru - Wikipedia
The name Habiru indeed originated from the farther East instead of Egypt. And this works well with the Hebrew tradition. The Habiru are mentioned from c.2000bc-1200bc. Abraham was known as a "Hebrew" in the old testament story, and he came from Mesopotamia where the "Habiru" or SA.GAZ people are mentioned.
In essence, It is my belief that the original Hebrews who are the basis for Israelite nation, were originally Habiru, or a collective bunch of Semetic rebel nomads.
And yes, some were originally slaves:
`Abdu-Heba, a prince of Jerusalem writes to Akhenaten-
"...now the Habiru capture the cities of the king...behold Turbazu has been slain in the very gate of Sile...Behold Simreda, the townsmen of Lachish have smitten him, SLAVES WHO HAD BECOME HABIRU. Yapti has been slain in the very gate of Sile, yet the king holds his peace." (p.176, Ian Wilson. The Exodus Enigma. London. Weidenfeld and Nicholson. 1985. ISBN 0-297-78749-7)Hebrewhabiruslaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by John Williams, posted 08-05-2005 4:27 PM John Williams has not replied
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 5:12 PM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 94 of 108 (230276)
08-05-2005 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by John Williams
08-05-2005 4:11 PM


Re: Re:Habiru
References to Habiru/Apiru slaves in Egypt:
On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Palestine (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Bedouin, 36,600 Horites," etc..
A stela from the reign of Seti I (around 1300 BC) tells that the pharaoh sent an expedition into Syria or Palestine, in response to an attack of "the apiru from Mount Yarmuta" upon a local town. An unspecified number of the apiru were captured and brought back to Egypt as slaves. (His son Ramses II is traditionally equated with "the pharaoh" of Exodus, Moses's adversary.)
A list of goods bequeathed to several temples by pharaoh Ramses III (around 1160 BC) includes many serfs, Egyptian and foreign: 86,486 to Thebes (2607 foreigners), 12,364 to Heliopolis (2093 foreign), and 3079 to Memphis (205 foreign). The foreign serfs are described as "maryanu (soldiers), apiru, and people already settled in the temple estate". Habiru - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by John Williams, posted 08-05-2005 4:11 PM John Williams has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 96 of 108 (230327)
08-05-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
08-05-2005 5:12 PM


Re: Re:Habiru
Actually, Habiru/Sa.Gaz are mentioned 25 times in the Amarna tablets.
Here is an online encyclopedia of the Amarna Letters:
Forbidden
As a side note, I find the Hyksos expulsion of the 1500's bc also as a possible insperation to the collective Exodus myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 5:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 7:50 PM John Williams has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 101 of 108 (230508)
08-06-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Brian
08-06-2005 5:55 AM


Re: Exodus facts and legend
I appreciate your response.
It certainly is a valid stance to believe that the Exodus/Genesis stories are nothing but fiction until there is some sort of remarkable historical evidence that can substantiate them.
I believe some of that historical evidence does exist which can atleast suggest their was a people who were called "Israel" during the time period just before the arrival of the Philistines c.1200 bc.
The one example of this would be the Israel Stele of 1207 bc.
You asked a good question: "And how do we know that the ‘Israel’ of the Merneptah Stele is the Israel of the Bible?"
Like most historical identification, you don't now with 100% certainty. But the indicators seem reasonable enough as most scholars do have a general consensus that the Israel mentioned in the stele is plausable evidence of the Israel of the bible.
I was impressed with the evidence you gave me which seemed to indicate a c.1000 bc origin for the Joseph story. This might make me reconsider my views of that narrative. [But I still think the bible narrative is a garbled fantasized account of old Hyksos memories of grandeur].
As for the people mentioned in Genesis etc, it seems that they were just like most folk heroes, such as king Arthur etc. Highly mythologized representations of real people. That's just my assumption though.
Now on to the Habiru:
Most of what you gave me was information I already knew of. I believe that the Hebrew ethnicity came from the Habiru/Apiru, who were outcasts from all ancient mid-east society and eventually formed a Robin Hood sort of band of ancient cossack/pirate like semi-nomadic warrior class serfs, who hired themselves out as Mercenaries, workers etc.[thus the slave traditions in egypt combined with memories of the Hyksos capitol at Ramsess(Avaris)].
Really, the evidence certainly exists for a possible link of the Habiru with the Hebrew. Thus,[as I believe] the Hebrew people were a collective bunch of rebel folk who came from far and wide throughout the Near-eastern world to join in groups that plundered, allied, and threatened the fairly weak Egyptian vassal princes of Canaan during the c.1400-1300's bc. This diverse group of people had legends and memories of an origin in the east-- accross the Euphrates[Abraham etc.] thus they became known as Hebrews--Eber meaning "across". Some of these groups formed into tribes that united and worshiped a combination of gods, El, Yahweh, etc. and eventually became known as the people of "YisrEl"--Israel. Then came their memories of a time when they lived as kings in Egypt, (Joseph,Jacob) and when they were driven out in an Exodus (Hyksos dynasty and Expulsion).
Then Philistines, and Sea people [arch rivasl] came from the coast in 1200-1150bc. For the next 200 years we would have the stories of mighty wars between Israel and Philistia--AKA Goliath, Samson. An Aegean Greek-like influence seems evident in these old bible stories--The Giant GOLIATH--wears armor like Herakles, Samson is likened to any Sun God of ancient lore.
I think that the Shasu/bedouin-nomads, may also have had some part to play in the influence of the Israelite people as Donald Redford believes.
Thank you for listening to my highly imaginative scenario. My extraordinary ideas deserve equally extraordinary evidence as I am aware.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Brian, posted 08-06-2005 5:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-08-2005 1:27 PM John Williams has not replied
 Message 106 by Brian, posted 08-08-2005 2:46 PM John Williams has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5029 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 102 of 108 (230512)
08-06-2005 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Theus
08-06-2005 3:30 PM


Re: Does anybody here follow archaeology?
Interesting info Theus.
I agree that the biblical idea of a huge Canaanite conquest under commander Joshua was an exaggeration. If anything, I believe it was a collective tradition of 200+ years of tribal wars condensed into one big fat story.
I am interested to hear more about Serabit El Khadin. I'll have to google that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Theus, posted 08-06-2005 3:30 PM Theus has not replied

  
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