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Author Topic:   Is god an objective reality?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 22 (472558)
06-23-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
06-22-2008 3:18 AM


Is it possible that god could be an 'objective' reality using the dictionary definition of objective?
Yes, I would say it's possible.
Or is it more likely that god is a subjective reality as in the given definition?
I dunno.... where's the data?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 06-22-2008 3:18 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by pelican, posted 06-23-2008 7:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 11 by pelican, posted 06-23-2008 7:41 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 12 by pelican, posted 06-23-2008 7:45 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 22 (472571)
06-23-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Granny Magda
06-23-2008 10:26 AM


Re: Recognising Objectivity
Of course it is possible that God is an objective reality but the question is how we would know. What criteria does an object need to possess before we judge it to be objectively real? I would suggest that the most important quality would be repeated observability. One person observing God is not very convincing, as they could just be experiencing a subjective delusion. The observation must be repeatable, not just for theists, but for anyone and furthermore, the results of these observations should match up and agree with each other.
Lets say I'm standing in front of a big curtain. I ask if anyone is behind it and someone says "Yes." Then I poke at the curtain and someone pokes back.
In comes another person who asks me if there is anyone behind the curtain. I say yes. They then try to find out for themselves. The guy on the other side doesn't respond to thier voice nor thier pokes. So they conclude that there is nobody behind the curtain because of the lack of repeatable evidence.
If god is a conscious being, then how can you get repeatable evidence if he decides who he reveals himself to?
If he doesn't reveal himself in a repeatable way, how can we conclude that he doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Granny Magda, posted 06-23-2008 10:26 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Shield, posted 06-23-2008 12:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 8 by Granny Magda, posted 06-23-2008 2:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 22 (472593)
06-23-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Shield
06-23-2008 12:17 PM


Re: Recognising Objectivity
I do not think that any one, ever, concluded that God does not exist.
Granny said it was "extremely suggestive that god is merely subjective". If you want to reserve the word "conclusion" then that's fine. But you gotta be careful with those absolute statements. All I have to do is find one person, who one time concluded that god does not exist for your statement to be false.
But why would you even bring something into the equation if you cannot prove it's existance and it does not seem neccesary?
Because, to me, it seems like god does exist. And I don't feel the need to prove something's existence for me to believe in it. I cannot prove that my mother loves me but I think she does.
You do know, that me claiming i created the earth last thursday, bares as much merit as any other creation myth?
It depends on how you measure merit. But this is about god, not creation myths. And FYI, I'm not a CreationistTM, but a Thiestic Evolutionist.
You do know, that Santa could just as easily exist, as a god could.
Just as easily? Where's the data?
Besides.. god is not even an answer... turtles upon turtles upon turtles..
Infinte regression is a problem for the First Cause argument, which I am not making.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Shield, posted 06-23-2008 12:17 PM Shield has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by pelican, posted 06-24-2008 7:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 22 (472626)
06-23-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Granny Magda
06-23-2008 2:18 PM


Re: Recognising Objectivity
I'm not especially convinced by your analogy.
Yeah, you totally missed the point by focusing on the details, which were unimportant. Oh well.
That you can construct a scenario in which God remains flawlessly hidden unless he chooses to reveal himself, does not mean that his existence should be considered significantly more likely.
No, it just point out that requiring repeatable observation does not apply to a conscious being who could render the observation un-repeated.
That it is un-repeated doesn't suggest non-existence.
Only positive evidence, available to any observer raises the chances of the object being real.
The chance? Either god exists or not, no matter the evidence.
I am not suggesting that I have absolute knowledge that he doesn't exist, but rather that the most parsimonious (and in my opinion, the most convincing) explanation for the lack of evidence for God is that he does not objectively exist.
Parsimony doesn't necessarily lead to the TruthTM.
If god exists, then he exists even with the lack of evidence no matter how parsimonious we want our theories to be.
All I am suggesting here is that in order to claim with any degree of confidence that something has an objective existence, we must first have objective evidence for it.
Yes, but if god revealed himself to you, personally, in an objective sense that he chose to not repeat and he did so in a way that was convincing to you, then you could easily believe in him without the repeatable evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Granny Magda, posted 06-23-2008 2:18 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Granny Magda, posted 06-24-2008 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 22 (472704)
06-24-2008 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by pelican
06-23-2008 7:20 PM


Re: god of the imagination?
I would think that if someone is objective (without emotional attachment and prior knowledge) then it is impossible for god to exist in their reality.
But you don't know. So do you have a point to argue or are we exchanging opinion?
But you are wrong because if the above was true, then the concept of god could have never emerged.
Is it possible the subjective data lies in the perceptions formed from personal experiences?
Sure, its possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by pelican, posted 06-23-2008 7:20 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by pelican, posted 06-24-2008 7:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 22 (473143)
06-27-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Granny Magda
06-24-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Recognising Objectivity
You have no evidence other than subjective experience. That makes your God claim completely indistinguishable from subjective delusion for any other person.
You're right there, Granny.
For this reason, I can't trust anyone but myself. Myself tells me that god does exist, so I believe that he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Granny Magda, posted 06-24-2008 10:22 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Granny Magda, posted 06-27-2008 2:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 22 (473152)
06-27-2008 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by pelican
06-24-2008 7:43 PM


Re: god of the imagination?
me writes:
you writes:
I would think that if someone is objective (without emotional attachment and prior knowledge) then it is impossible for god to exist in their reality.
But you are wrong because if the above was true, then the concept of god could have never emerged.
I don't know but you make a good point. Where would this concept of god have emerged?
Somewhere in the distant past in humans' evolutionary history, there was no concept of god. Nowadays there is a concept of god. Somewhere in between, the concept of god had to have emerge.
If, as you said, the concept of god couldn't exist without emotional attachment and prior knowledge, then the first concept of god couldn't have emerged. But it did, so you're wrong.
To be honest, I would perfer to believe in god, but I feel the notion of god was 'ingrained' in me as a child. No longer a child, I wish to know the truth.
I was ingrained as a chid too. Then I went to college. I was an atheist for a while, but I became reconvinced that god exists.
I suppose it could be that the brainwashing was just that good, or that we fall back on what we're comfortable with, etc. But from my own experiences I have concluded that god exists. That is the truth I know

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by pelican, posted 06-24-2008 7:43 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by pelican, posted 06-27-2008 9:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 22 (473184)
06-27-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Granny Magda
06-27-2008 2:49 PM


Re: Recognising Objectivity
Fair enough in so far as it goes, but it does nothing to make a case for God's objectivity.
You mean like how not having repeatable evidence of god doesn't make a case against gods objectivity?
Myself, I wouldn't be satisfied with that level of evidence. I would want to ask some sort of question equivalent to "Did you just see what I saw?" before placing any weight on such an innately unlikely proposition as God.
Yeah well, there's millions of people that believe in god
May all your delusions be beneficent ones, because if you are willing to accept whatever you "sense" as being real,
Nah, not whatever I sense... I mean, well, I have been drunk before.
I wouldn't like to be around you should you ever fall prey to some more dangerous idea.
Why assume that I will?
As if religious poeple are automatically prone to dangerous ideas....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Granny Magda, posted 06-27-2008 2:49 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Granny Magda, posted 06-28-2008 8:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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