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Author Topic:   A question for believers - why the Bible?
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 62 of 79 (172948)
01-02-2005 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by commike37
01-01-2005 10:00 PM


Hi Mike,
And this occured to fulfill the prophecy of [some prophet], which said, "[quote from the prophet in the Old Testament]."
Of course I realise this, but this doesn't mean that Jesus fulfilled anything.
You do know what circular reasoning is?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by commike37, posted 01-01-2005 10:00 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by commike37, posted 01-02-2005 4:03 PM Brian has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 1000 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 63 of 79 (173022)
01-02-2005 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:50 AM


Maybe you could pick a prophecy or two and demonstrate for me that it has to be an OT prophecy fulfilled by Jesus?
No, we cannot demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus fulfilled any prophecy. But there are many pointers.
E.g. the tabernacle and the sacrificial system. Before Christ came the Jewish people were clearly expecting a Messiah. They even agreed on many details about his coming: born of a virgin in Bethelehem of the line of David, etc. and so forth. Daniel's prophecy of the interruption at the 69th week occured when Jesus came riding in on the donkey. There is even prophecy of his suffering and death for the forgiveness of sins in Isaiah.
Taken on the whole, the message is quite powerful, though weak enough to allow rationalization for those who wish to deny it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:50 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:08 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 64 of 79 (173042)
01-02-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hangdawg13
01-02-2005 12:25 PM


Hi HD,
Before Christ came the Jewish people were clearly expecting a Messiah.
The Jewish people are still awaiting the messiah.
They even agreed on many details about his coming: born of a virgin
Sorry?
The Jews were expecting the messiah to be born of a virgin? I was under the impression that the messiah would not have a special birth at all.
I hope you aren't making the mistake of confusing Isaiah 7:14 as a messianic prophecy.
in Bethelehem
Bethlehem the city?
Not according to Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
'Thousands of Judah' certainly cannot relate to the city of Bethlehem as there has never been thousands of settlements in Judah. This verse is talking about a clan and not a place.
Maybe I am mistaken and you have another verse that mentions the messiah being born in Bethlehem?
of the line of David,
Jesus wasn't born of the line of David, so that sorta ejects him from the messiah stakes.
etc. and so forth.
Yes, it is pretty easy to claim that someone fulfiled this and that when you are sitting with the Tanakh on you knee and essentially making things up.
Daniel's prophecy of the interruption at the 69th week occured when Jesus came riding in on the donkey.
Where is this in the Tanakh HD?
There is even prophecy of his suffering and death for the forgiveness of sins in Isaiah.
No, there is an allusion to the suffering servant in Isaiah, but this looks more as if Isaiah is talking about the remnant of Israel and not an idividual. The details of the suffering servant contain several items that nullify the possibility of Jesus being that person, if it is an individual that is. For example, the suffering servant will have a long life and father children, Jesus did not have any of these two.
Taken on the whole, the message is quite powerful, though weak enough to allow rationalization for those who wish to deny it.
I honestly think that you have this the wrong way round. I think that the links between the old and new testaments are incredibly weak, but that some people see a powerful connection that just isn't there.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-02-2005 12:25 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-02-2005 1:55 PM Brian has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 1000 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 65 of 79 (173058)
01-02-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Brian
01-02-2005 1:08 PM


I'm not going to debate biblical prophecy again. I'm not an OT scholar and I'm not sure that you are (even though you speak with all the authority of a great pharisee). You clearly will accept ANY doctrine or interpretation of a passage that is diverted from Christ and in the end you will always point out that we cannot even prove Christ was a real person. It is really fruitless to argue with this kind of skepticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:04 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 79 (173060)
01-02-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hangdawg13
01-02-2005 1:55 PM


You clearly will accept ANY doctrine or interpretation of a passage that is diverted from Christ
Not at all, I love the OT and it has been mutilated many times by the Church.
and in the end you will always point out that we cannot even prove Christ was a real person.
I am pretty convinced that jesus was a real person, he definately wasn't the messiah tough.
It is really fruitless to argue with this kind of skepticism.
Roughly translated this means that you cannot refute the points I made.
This is to be expected of course, no point in having an open mind is there HD?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-02-2005 1:55 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-02-2005 10:29 PM Brian has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 79 (173097)
01-02-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:51 AM


This is what circular reasoning looks like:
The state can not exist without the individuals.
Individuals can not have rights protected without the state.
Individual over state.
State over individual.
...(It goes around and around, just like a circle)
I don't get how this is circular reasoning. Jesus came long after the prophets, so it's not like they could have collaborated while Jesus was living and make sure everything was consistent.
edit: Also, you said in another post that Jesus was not of the line of David. It looks like somebody hasn't read the (patriarchal) genealogy of Christ. Matthew 1:6a "and Jesse the father of King David." Perhaps you looked at only the matriarchal genealogy.
This message has been edited by commike37, 01-02-2005 16:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:51 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 4:30 PM commike37 has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 68 of 79 (173105)
01-02-2005 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by commike37
01-02-2005 4:03 PM


Hi mike,
Jesus came long after the prophets, so it's not like they could have collaborated while Jesus was living and make sure everything was consistent.
But, the people who wrote the Gospels, whoever they were, obviously familiar with the Tanakh. It wasn't the prophets that collaborated, it was the authors of the New Testament. They knew the prophecies and just made up stories to try and make Jesus fit them, there is nothing impressive here at all.
As for circular reasoning, how do you know that the messiah was to be born in bethlehem, the bible says so, how do you know Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the Bible says so. It is nonsense. (Note, I do not believe that the OT says that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem but you get the idea I hope)
Also, you said in another post that Jesus was not of the line of David. It looks like somebody hasn't read the (patriarchal) genealogy of Christ. Matthew 1:6a "and Jesse the father of King David." Perhaps you looked at only the matriarchal genealogy.
The patriarchal geneaology is pointless as Joseph was not Jesus' father, there is no direct bloodline through the father here.
Also, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant as bloodline always goes through the father. Anyway, Mary's genealogy isnt in the Bible at all. Finally, IF Mary is linked to Nathan then this is also negated through the fact that the bloodline was to go through David's son Solomon.
Jesus could not be the messiah, no big deal really, but an entertaining read.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by commike37, posted 01-02-2005 4:03 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by commike37, posted 01-02-2005 5:19 PM Brian has not replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 79 (173117)
01-02-2005 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Brian
01-02-2005 4:30 PM


You're getting off topic here.
So I have a relatively simple question for all of the Christians on the site
If you want to argue that only the Old Testament is true, then you would be Jewish, and this question applies to Christians. If you want to debate this, then you should go to the forum "The Bible: Inaccuracy and Inerrancy." This topic is about why Christians believe in the Bible. It is not about disproving the New Testament. While I could see an argument as to what's the best way to believe the Bible, I don't see an argument saying we shouldn't believe to be topical.

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 Message 68 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 4:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 1000 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 70 of 79 (173195)
01-02-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:04 PM


Roughly translated this means that you cannot refute the points I made.
No translation is necessary. I meant what I said, it is pointless to debate this with you.
This is to be expected of course, no point in having an open mind is there HD?
I have an open mind. In the past few months as a result of my debating here I have rejected everything I was ever taught about Christianity and doubted the existence of God, but after examining all my doubts and the scriptures again, my faith has returned and I am rationally satisfied with my position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:04 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Brian, posted 01-03-2005 4:55 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 71 of 79 (173302)
01-03-2005 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Hangdawg13
01-02-2005 10:29 PM


Hi,
No translation is necessary. I meant what I said, it is pointless to debate this with you.
Why is it pointless, is it because I am not gullible enough to blindly accept your unsupported claims?
I am rationally satisfied with my position.
But unable to rationally defend it to anyone other than yourself.
Excellent.
Cheers
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-02-2005 10:29 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 79 (173624)
01-04-2005 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by asciikerr
12-29-2004 3:02 AM


Re: How's This!?
Hello asciikerr. Thanks for your lengthy response. I appreciate that your are trying to do what you see as right by your religion.
Honestly though, your life must be perfect if your only real worries are concerning the amount of boost to add to your Subaru. When real problems come and you have no answers...pray to God and take a stroll through the Bible.
I am fortunate in that my life is pretty dam good. Besides being sometimes bored with work, working through sports injuries and occasionally dealing with difficult people, my life as an atheist is well sorted, financially, emotionally and, dare I say it, spiritually. I am well placed to cope with "real problems" because I realise they arise merely out of cause and effect, unpredictable complexity and in complete compliance with the purposeless laws of physics in our universe. I don't labor over pointless rationalisations over the input of imaginary deities and whether I have appeased them or not. If something "bad" happens I try to do what I can to mitigate it's effects and avoid it in the future, but also acknowledge that some things just happen and are outside our sphere of influence (eg: natural disasters).
Responses to your Q+A:
1) Challenger disaster.
asciikerr responded:
A bit out of context, but they really should've prayed before the actual flight as scripture would teach, "And pray that your flight may not be in 'winter' or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20). Then they wouldn't have to worry about that chunk of Ice! Also, they should really pray to God for their salvation & a miracle. If anyone can work a miracle, its God.
And they would have still burned up. I'd wager that some of them may have prayed and received the usual success rate that theists achieve when praying.
The liquid rocket fuel of the shuttle boosters is way below freezing, and this created the ice which damaged the wing during take off. Your Bible quote about winter is not applicable.
It was a long shot expecting a 2000 year old religious text written by bronze age goat herders to provide much insight into a tragic present day technological disaster. No supernatural or profound insight provided.
I had hoped for an amusing Tower of Babel reference!
2) Epilepsy
In John 9, we find the disciples asking a similar question "...who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" In much the same way, both people were struck with an affliction, one was blind the other an epileptic. There is always a chance that these people will be healed in order to Glorify God (Luke 17:11-17;Luke 18:43; Acts 3:7-8). In ancient times, there were also people that could find no cure for their conditions. The Bible records one such lady who was afflicated for 12 yrs and only becamed healed by her faith in Jesus (Mark 5:25-29,34). So, if doctors, surgeons are specialists can't seem to find a cure for this persons epilepsy, try going to a "Bible" believing and Bible preaching church, ask the Pastor to pray over that person (James 5:14-16).
The Bible isn't real good on medicine. The Biblical cause of epilepsy is "demons" and the cure exorcisism. In this case, I actually provided you with the cause of the epilepsy: an accidental blow to the head. Claiming that someone's sin caused the condition has no explantory value whatsoever. Unfortunately we don't have your mythical Messiah walking around healing people or a God providing testable and documentable healing. Modern medicine based on science is the only hope for successful diagnosis and treatment.
I refer you to James Randi's "The Faith Healers' for research on the dismal phenomenom of US faith healers.
Or likewise my eldest sibling's devoutly fundamentalist family provides me with great faith healing data: tragically, one of my nephews is a insulin dependent diabetic since the age of 10, another spent this very Christmas is hospital having his appendix removed. My sister-in-law suffered from severe post natal depression for years. The list is much longer, but in their case modern medicine has sustained two of their lives, and faith healing provided nothing.
3) Risk of shark attack
First off, as an unbeliever you have bigger problems. The Bible puts it plainly, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28). So rather than worrying about the Shark which may gobble you up, you should fear God Almighty who has the ability to destroy both your soul & body in Hell. Now, to eliminate the chance of a shark attack, I go to Proverbs for sound wisdom concerning the matter. Proverbs 27:12 reads, "A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself; The simple pass on and are punished." Prudent in the dictionary says "to excercise good judgement or common sense." Try learning the area and ideal times for swimming, learn as much as you can to better minimize the chance of a Shark Attack. If you don't, then as Proverbs reads, "the simple pass on and are punished." So definately have a game plan!
I understand the message of Matt 10:28. It amazes me actually how paranoid Christians actually are of death: most try to live very safely and preserve their lives using all means provided by modern science. Seems a bit strange when their is a supposed enternity of heaven awaiting: it is almost like than don't really believe or trust their own message.
Muslim fundamentalist nutcases demonstrate their conviction much more convincingly, readily and regularly!
As an atheist I work to preserve my healthy life, but do not fear the inevitability of oblivion for my mortal consciousness. If I did I wouldn't swim with the friggin' sharks now, would I?
Proverbs 27:12 is good sensible advice, but I do not desire to closet myself away from all danger. There are too many fun dangerous experiences to be had in life!
I was hoping for some insight into the predatory habits of the shark, but the Bible isn't real good on biology, is it?
4) Witches
Again, their primary concern should be...do they know the Lord!? Now lets go to scripture to see what the Bible says about Witches. Exodus 22:18 reads, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The Bible doesn't distinguish between a "Good" witch or a "Bad" witch. So even the Good Witch of Wizard of Oz would be sharing hellfire w/the Bad witch. Again, scripture says, "Abstain from all 'appearance' of evil" (1Thess 5:22). Yes, that is why Christians don't let their kids play Harry Potter etc., As Christians we are to "Abhor what is evil & Cling to what is good" (Rom 12:9). So should you stone your kids? No, consult w/their parents and they are to raise their children in a Godly environment...once they find the true joy of knowing Jesus...Harry Potter and Charmed T.V. shows will pale in comparison.
Not suprisingly the Bible provides us with little of value on this subject, and instead provides us with some scary incorrect stuff. In this modern day and age where we no longer believe in nonsense like "the evil eye", we realise that witches don't actually exist and magic and sorcery are fictional. Would-be witches are merely playing make believe and engaging in relatively harmless fantasy. Such make-believe is not evil and is certainly a lot less evil than the evil that has often been embodied in religions throughout history. It is horrifying to suggest that such individuals (or others that aren't even pretending to be witches) should be subject to the sort of punshment that the Christian church once handed out in compliance with absurd and inapplicable Biblical nonsense.
The Bible cannot provide consistent and good advice about critical thinking because such thinking is contrary to the mindset required for religious belief. Indeed, the very first chapter starts off by telling us how we shouldn't eat from the tree of knowledge.
You also failed to explain why, as a Christian, witches should now be suffered to live in contravention of the Bible.
5) Same sex relationships, de-facto relationships.
Simple enough, the Bible tell us the elements by which they operate and how to avoid them...you need only do the opposite of its warnings & precepts. Even in ancient times the harlots hung out at corners during the black and dark nights, they would lurk around corners looking for their customers or prey. They would even be so bold as to come meet you face to face (Prov 7:7-15). Again, not much has changed...be careful what you asked for, you just might get it!
Thanks for suggesting that my partner seek harlots and prostitutes. She actually has a preference for young well spoken and educated professional women. She does seek a relationship afterall. I didn't think the Bible would have much insight about modern/unconventional relationships, but then at least I avoided what I figured was going to be the unavoidable plethora of Biblical quotes from you about fornication and same sex relationships.
6) Cults
You can win the argument, but still lose their soul my friend. Even if you proved w/o a shadow of a doubt that the Bible & God were true through Prophecy, Revelation, Miracles, Secular History, Archeology etc., their Free-Will still causes them to follow blindly. Them's just the breaks man, I'm sure you know what I mean! Have them read about "The Prodigal Son" (Luke 15:11-31). Most you can do is let them know that when they have no where else to go, and everybody else has rejected & forsaken them...God hasn't and never will. His door will always be open. "For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" (Heb 13:5).
This was going to be a pickle for you, given that the Bible can be a great tool for creating a cult. It provides a few vague and non-specific warnings about avoiding false prophets, but otherwise completely fails to protect it's believers from cult abuse.
You are right though: even though you can demonstrate that just about all cultist beliefs are false through scientific testing of the material claims, free will (as you label it) causes them to follow blindly.
How does Luke 15:11-31 assist with avoiding false prophets? Heb 13:5? A cultist already believes that they are on the right path to God: how does Heb 13:5 assist?
7) Modern technology/transport
Again, as an unbeliever...you should really focus on what really matters. "...seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you" (Matt 6:33). If you were a believer I would say, pray to God, ask for wisdom, knowledge & understanding (Prov 2:1-6). Being the unbeliever that you are, I somehow figured you wouldn't, so I have taken the liberty to pray for you concerning this question as the Bible would have me do. This is what I've come up with...
Does a Christian honestly have to pray to God for answers about turbo-charged engines... !
I appreciate your lengthy and detailed response, asciikerr, but I suspect that you have referred to the same God of knowledge available to me. We both call this "God", the Internet!
You have demonstrated how modern knowledge has supplanted the ancient and marginally intruiging insights of bronze age philosophers.
I really did hope you would take this opportunity for questioning more seriously, the Bible does provide the answers for everyday living. Self-help books, psychologists and the wisdom of men won't give you the answers you need, only God's message for you will.
Whilst I had a little fun, I did take this opportunity very seriously. The Bible provides some reasonably sensible, and mostly obvious insights for pleasant living but it also includes a stack of obsolete nonsense and obviously excludes much stuff necessary for the modern age. This much has been demonstrated above.
What has the wisdom of men given us? Christianity had alomst 2000 years at the reigns of European society, but since it's fall from power we have:
- Modern medicine and lower infant mortality/greater life expectency etc
- Space travel and knowledge of solar system and universe beyond.
- Modern transport.
- Telecommunications.
- Modern contruction.
- Computers and the Internet (which you have to use just to answer questions about your "supernatural book")
- Understanding of the natural universe: physics, chemistry, biology, earth sciences, natural history.
etc etc.
I challenge you to spend one entire day relying on nothing but the wisdom your find in the Bible: you cannot live in a modern house made of modern constructions materials/methods, can't wear modern fibres, can't eat any foods derived from modern agricultural techniques, can't use electricity, can only walk or ride animals, can't use water from a tap (except where sourced from a Roman or Greek aqueduct!), can't use any phone/tv/computer, cannot enter modern buildings cross modern bridges, and can't use medical aid. Sounds like the Amish!
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 01-04-2005 00:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by asciikerr, posted 12-29-2004 3:02 AM asciikerr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 01-04-2005 5:17 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 75 by DrJones*, posted 01-04-2005 6:04 PM Gilgamesh has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 73 of 79 (173826)
01-04-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Gilgamesh
01-04-2005 12:12 AM


Re: How's This!?
At least two prayed for the mission before the Columbia took off.
Mike Anderson and Rick Husband
"Rick and I have prayed for a successful mission," Mike said, "but also that somehow God would allow everyone to see our faith in Him. We'd like to ask for your prayers as we get ready to go on this sixteen-day mission. And not only prayers for a safe flight but also that in some small way we can use this platform to really let people know what we believe and let God's message get out there."

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-04-2005 12:12 AM Gilgamesh has replied

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 Message 74 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-04-2005 5:52 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 79 (173839)
01-04-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
01-04-2005 5:17 PM


Re: How's This!?
Purpledawn wrote:
At least two prayed for the mission before the Columbia took off.
Thanks for your input, Purple. I would have figured as much.
It's always bewildered me how black and white examples of the failure of prayer often do not compromise the faith of those involved. This is mostly because of the bullshit coverall church assessment of prayer response: "The answer will be Yes, No or Later", which basically covers every contigent from a fairly useless, unpredictable and indifferent Christian God, to no God/randomn chance, to Pretty Pick Pixies. It evidences the fact the faith has very little to do with rationale thought and a lot to do with an emotive need.
No disrespect intended to those who perished in this tragedy, or their families.

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2337
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 75 of 79 (173841)
01-04-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Gilgamesh
01-04-2005 12:12 AM


Re: How's This!?
minor nitpick for both you and asciiker: it was a chunk of insulating foam, not ice that caused the damage to the Challenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-04-2005 12:12 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-04-2005 8:18 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 79 (173890)
01-04-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by DrJones*
01-04-2005 6:04 PM


Re: How's This!?
DrJones wrote:
minor nitpick for both you and asciiker: it was a chunk of insulating foam, not ice that caused the damage to the Challenger.
Oh ta. My bad. Am I right in that ice forms on the booster engines because of the fuel temp?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by DrJones*, posted 01-04-2005 6:04 PM DrJones* has replied

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