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Author Topic:   Degrees of Faith?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 5 of 86 (376635)
01-12-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
01-12-2007 4:29 PM


"It is true that I may have faith in the Bible (God, church, etc.), but everyone has to have faith in something. For instance, you have faith in the scientific method (or empiricism, tentative knowledge, etc.). So pointing out that I have faith is not a criticism, since you are guilty of the same crime"
Excellent topic, JustinC--this is a textbook example of equivocation as well as a pretty good case of the tu quoque (You too! Nyah, nyah!) fallacy.
I think your definition of faith as "belief without regard to reason" is a fair one; I especially like "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" as offered by my Webster's.
The essential difference is that the scientific method requires replicable evidence. Descartes sought certainty in his own existence in incrementalism--following a chain of logic composed of very small steps, each link one in which he could have great confidence. He stopped short of scientific rigor, however, when he settled for the "faith" of internal experience.
Science raises the bar by requiring that the evidence that generates confidence must be evidence that can be obtained and examined independently by others. Also, science requires the perpetually open mind, the willingness to examine and accept valid falsifying evidence.
So the reply to the equivocating, so-are-you fallacy you describe is a simple one, I think: we have confidence, not faith, in science, because its methods are rigorous, and its products clear to see. Far from being a mirror world to faith, science is the antithesis of faith: not "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" but confidence in something for which the evidential grounds are broad, deep, and universally available. Faith requires belief without evidence, as well as persistence of belief in the face of contrary evidence.
Faith does not admit of degrees--you either believe or you do not; that belief may be weak or strong in the face of challenge, but the state itself is absolute. Science, however, admits of a broad spectrum of confidence, ranging from "it looks like it might be" to "it almost certainly is."
I am confident of the ability of science to yield true knowledge about the world because of the persuasiveness of the methodology and the powerful manipulations of the world that science has made possible. Faith can offer no evidence at all but leaps (like Descartes but with less reason) to certainty.
The difference is as deep as a fair trial vs. a lynching party.
Edited by Omnivorous, : in search of comma perfection

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JustinC, posted 01-12-2007 4:29 PM JustinC has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 01-14-2007 8:45 AM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-15-2007 3:02 AM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 64 by truthlover, posted 03-21-2007 8:41 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 20 of 86 (377071)
01-15-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
01-14-2007 8:45 AM


Re: Proof for the Method
PD writes:
Actually those who created the scientific method require replicable evidence, but is there evidence that the scientific method does yield true knowledge about the natural world?
That sounds like a distinction without a difference, PD, but I'd say, yes, the predictive and instrumental power of the scientific method is evidence that it has yielded true knowledge about the natural world.
Years ago using the scientific method, scientists come up with a fact about the natural world.
Years later using the scientific method, scientists show that that fact was wrong and give us a new fact.
Does the scientific method really give us true knowledge of the natural world or just confirm or prove false the questions that we pose?
The scientific method gives us increasingly accurate knowledge of the natural world: can you really doubt that discovering that the earth revolves around the sun rather than vice versa is not true knowledge? Or learning that ripping out a captive's heart will not improve the weather?
Your objection/question sounds philosophically plausible in the abstract but absurd in the particular. As you suggest, however, the ever-closer approximation of true knowledge about the natural world is indeed a reiterative process.
Until not too many years ago, doctors thought stomach ulcers were caused by stress, and severe cases could only be treated by surgery: still, 40 years ago that surgery saved my father's life. Today, we know those ulcers were caused by bacterial infection, and they can be cured with antibiotics. But both then and now, lives were/are saved because we abandoned belief in the Theory of Humours and gained more accurate knowledge about the cause of that stomach pain and bleeding: because we must crawl before we can walk does not mean we were not moving when we crawled.
From a peon standpoint, without proof, we trust that the scientists are asking the right questions with our well being in mind.
I do not make that assumption, though I do trust that most scientists ask questions intended to improve the material human condition--which science has done more to accomplish in a few centuries than faith managed over millennia.
Is it reasonable to continue to trust a group that has provided knowledge that helps to destroy our environment and our health? Do we continue to trust because we feel the pros outweigh the cons, although we have no proof that the pros do outweigh the cons; or do we trust because we have become conditioned to trust what scientists proclaim, just as those raised in a religous setting have been conditioned to trust what religion proclaims?
I think you need to look to those who actually damage the environment and human health rather than to those who discovered the technology that was abused to do so. Fire has done great harm in the hands of arsonists, but who wants to give up central heating? Mismanaged pharmaceutical plants have polluted many communities--will you deny your children antibiotics when they next need them?
Human longevity and health has benefitted tremendously from science, and the damage to the environment in the process reflects on the greedy, not the inquisitive: great despoilation of the environment has occurred because of the greed of individual industrialists, not because science cannot offer methods to industrialize without environmental damage.
It is also my experience that those who weigh the pros and cons, and find science lacking, are largely unaware of the past and present misery caused by ignorance.
I don't think we have become "conditioned" to accept what scientists proclaim: I don't think scientists proclaim. At least in the industrialized world, our educational systems offer us the knowledge required to establish lower or higher degrees of confidence in scientific data. I think that those who feel they must either accept or reject scientific "proclamations" are the same folks who accept religious and political proclamations: the folks who refused to learn enough to consider scientific results critically also refuse to think for themselves in religious or political matters.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typo

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 01-14-2007 8:45 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by purpledawn, posted 01-16-2007 11:48 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 24 of 86 (377164)
01-15-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-15-2007 3:02 AM


taters writes:
However a great many people believe that all answers are to be found through science. That is nothing more than belief in something for which there is no proof. There is no "raising the bar"
in this case. In fact it is just as misguided as the litoral
creationsts.
If "all answers" means all answers that can be found about the natural world, then those great many people are correct: there is no method other than science that will yield those answers. Could you name an alternate method for answering questions about the moons of Jupiter?
If "all answers" includes matters beyond the natural world--like the color of God's hair or how many wives are proper for a Muslim or a Mormon--then those people hold misconceptions not provided by science. In any case, I don't know anyone who thinks science can answer every question. Could you name a few?
Further, since science has provided all our verifiable knowledge about the natural world, even those who mistakenly believe science can answer every question have not fallen into the category of literal creatinionists who have provided no verifiable knowledge at all.
I am confident of ability of science to yield true knowledge about the world
Yes, I feel the same. Show me your confidence or evidence of it. What is empirical about it? Where is the science in it?
I have two choices here: one, to assume that you are asking for evidential support to justify my confidence that science can yield knowledge about the natural world, or two, that you are again using the techniques of equivocation to label my confidence a "feeling" and to demand evidence of its existence. The first has already been accomplished, and the second is intellectually childish.
It is when people go beyond what we truly know
that violates the ideal of the scientific method. Having "confidence" and the phrase "the persuasiveness of the methodology and the powerful manipulations" is your belief about science. These are your personal views. Nothing more. Stick to facts without indulging in your beliefs.
Yes, my posts are intended to reflect what I think: in that sense, the phrases you quote depict my "beliefs." However, those beliefs are not, as you construct them in your syntax, isolated parallels without causal relation, little islands of baseless, faith-like belief: I have that confidence because of science's ability to predict and to produce.
What is true about what we know is that we know very little. The rest is faith and belief.
I'd prefer to say our knowledge is incomplete. The rest is observation, hypothesis, testing and replication, repeated as necessary.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typo

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-15-2007 3:02 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 28 of 86 (377590)
01-17-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by purpledawn
01-16-2007 11:48 AM


Re: But Is It Always Right?
PD writes:
But Is It Always Right?
No, of course not: but science is more likely to yield useful, increasingly accurate approximations than any other method. Faith, in particular, explicitly rejects systematic, independent review and correction.
A person who consistently rejects scientific findings based on their religious or philosophical perspective will sometimes be correct in their denial, but they cannot provide consistently accurate alternatives: I can predict someone's death every day, and eventually be right, but that does not change the fact that each day's prediction is based on ignorance. The collation of an individual's risk factors--genetic, environmental and lifestyle--and actuarial profiles produces far more accurate and useful estimates of longevity.
Now reason tells us that our observations can be flawed and experiments are limited by our observations, desire, and capabilities; but we still have faith in the system.
I'd say that we have confidence that scientific methodology is the approach most likely to yield useful approximations. And I don't see how one could consider the current outlook on science in the U.S. and conclude that the average person has unquestioning "faith" in science; indeed, there seems to be a greal deal of skepticism.
As you've shown, while the surgery saved your father's life and was the right course of action based on the data at the time; the data at the time wasn't correct.
The data at the time was closer to being correct than any other prior or contemporary view--it was precisely correct in positing a disease process based in the natural world and knowable cause-and-effect. Previously, patients with severe bleeding stomach ulers almost invariably died; patients who received the then-newly developed surgery in most cases survived.
Forty years ago the data, hypothesis, and best therapy were good; now they are better. Perhaps in the future an improved understanding of intestinal ecology will permit us to prevent the H. pylorii blooms that create ulcers: good, better, best--this is the narrative arc of medical progress and epitomizes the scientific method.
As I noted, prior theories of human disease were nearly mythological in nature--humours, punishment by an angry God, demonic possession, etc. The essential difference is that the best data at the time of my father's surgery was produced by a system capable of and amenable to correction: his treatment was not the best possible, but it was the best available, based on a rational view of human anatomy and disease produced by centuries of inquiry.
Although that data required correction, it was accurate enough to produce useful, life-saving results. For millennia, no other school of thought had produced a treatment capable of saving his life. The essence of faith, in contrast, is static, unchanged from the tribal time of animal sacrifice and public stonings.
All human endeavors are subject to error. It is the unique genius of the scientific method that both data and conclusions must be subject to testing by others, the very antithesis of faith.
I'm not saying that data achieved by using the scientific method is always right or always wrong. What I'm saying is that we have faith in the system even though we know it can allow wrong data to prevail.
As noted previously, I see no justification for calling our confidence in the ability of sicence to produce an increasingly accurate view of the natural world "faith." A hometown fan may have faith that their team (which is 0 and 30 again this year) will win their final game; the rational observer who notes that their opponent is 30 and 0 will reach the contrary conclusion, and it is absurd to call both perspectives "faith."
IMO, the average person has become conditioned to accept that scientists find the right answers. That's why people get distressed when scientists in the media contradict each other. (The same way people get distressed when preachers contradict each other.) The average person usually doesn't have the means to determine who is right.
I'd say many people abdicate their right and ability to determine which scientific hypothesis has the greatest likelihood of being correct: in most instances (given normal human intelligence and the average Western access to educational resources), what most people lack is not the means but the will.
I'd also suggest that this is not an unreasonable position: the track record of the scientific method justifies a greater confidence in its results than the results of religious dogma, folklore, or other mystification. Again, the medical example is useful: accumulated data can predict quite well the probable outcomes of various treatments for a given type of cancer; the need to venture into disputed territory arises when there is great need to do so--when standard-of-care approaches have been exhausted.
In my experience, the first time most people assume responsibility for their own evaluation of conflicting scientific hypotheses occurs when they must choose among experimental therapies: mortality focuses the mind wonderfully on one's own powers of reason. The enormous number of specific disease-oriented online forums, support groups, articles, etc. testifies to the average person's readiness to audit scientific data and hypotheses when it truly matters.
The average person is capable of reasonable conclusions about scientific hypotheses: when need awakens the will, reason rises to the challenge. Most people are persuaded by a powerful track record to rely on a general scientific consensus, an outlook that is neither conditioned nor faithful but rather experienced and confident.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typos

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by purpledawn, posted 01-16-2007 11:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 01-17-2007 9:33 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 36 of 86 (377678)
01-17-2007 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
01-17-2007 9:33 PM


Re: But Is It Always Right?
quote:
Faith, in particular, explicitly rejects systematic, independent review and correction.
No, faith per the definition does not. Since there are people of faith who are scientists, that isn't a completely true statement. Specific beliefs systems may, but faith in general doesn't.
What definition of faith allows for independent review and correction? When does faith consider any verifiable/falsifiable evidence? We have been speaking of scientific methodology and religious faith: that some individuals can embrace both does not eliminate the bright line that delimits the two methods. Scientists who are also people of faith are not doing science if they approach their research with the mindset and methods of faith.
quote:
I'd say that we have confidence that scientific methodology is the approach most likely to yield useful approximations.
That's faith.
So you keep saying, without any logical or evidential support. When I believe something because "my heart tells me to" even though I can see or cite no evidence, that's faith; when I believe science yields true information about the world because planes fly and antibiotics work, that's confidence.
Science yields predictable results and offers the tools of verification/falsification to all. Faith offers acceptance or be damned.
quote:
And I don't see how one could consider the current outlook on science in the U.S. and conclude that the average person has unquestioning "faith" in science; indeed, there seems to be a greal deal of skepticism.
I didn't say unquestioning and neither did the OP. The medical realm is starting to lose its shine, but I think money and politics have caused most of that problem.
True, you said:
IMO, the average person has become conditioned to accept that scientists find the right answers.
My point stands--the conditioning seems of little efficacy. And I don't see modern medical science losing its shine--I see 45 million Americans desperate for access to it.
quote:
The essence of faith, in contrast, is static, unchanged from the tribal time of animal sacrifice and public stonings.
No it isn't. A belief system may be and someone who has faith in that belief system maybe, but the essence of faith isn't. Even the meaning of the word has changed from ancient times. Faith-Belief
The theological usage has only been around since the 1300's. So how can the essence of "faith" be static, unchanged etc., when the meaning we are using in this discussion supposedly wasn't how the word was used in those times?
My depiction of faith as static and unchanged focuses on the contrast between science and religious faith: no matter how many theologians you get to dance on their pens, faith denies the primacy of evidence and reason. In that regard, faith has remained unchanged since the first hapless victim was sacrificed to a god.
quote:
A hometown fan may have faith that their team (which is 0 and 30 again this year) will win their final game; the rational observer who notes that their opponent is 30 and 0 will reach the contrary conclusion, and it is absurd to call both perspectives "faith."
The one fan had faith in his team, the other one didn't use the scientific method so I don't see your point. He made an observation, but didn't run any experiments for others to replicate.
That's just silly, PD. The point was that one observer based his prediction on close observation of the world, and the track record of past performance; the other relied on his desire for things to turn out just so. No, the former wasn't doing formal science, but he was using evidence and reason, not faith, to make a more accurate prediction of the likely outcome.
quote:
I'd also suggest that this is not an unreasonable position: the track record of the scientific method justifies a greater confidence in its results than the results of religious dogma, folklore, or other mystification.
Agreed, I'm not saying it is unreasonable. Faith doesn't have to be unreasonable.
Faith is not rational. You can repeat your equivocation of faith and confidence all you like, but it will not change the fact that they differ. My grandson had faith that Santa would bring him a Blue Mater truck; I had confidence that I could get one somewhere in time for the holiday. Those are neither equivalent states of mind nor equally efficacious ways of garnering accurate info about the world.
quote:
The average person is capable of reasonable conclusions about scientific hypotheses: when need awakens the will, reason rises to the challenge. Most people are persuaded by a powerful track record to rely on a general scientific consensus, an outlook that is neither conditioned nor faithful but rather experienced and confident.
It is still faith. People can find a powerful track record in religion also. Obviously not for understanding the natural world, but for spiritual needs. My observations concerning the average person are obviously different.
No, PD, it still isn't. Yes, religion has a powerful track record of persuading people to believe the most amazing things without any evidence whatsoever. When I think my surgeon can successfully fuse my wrecked cervical spine and brace it with titanium, because he has done it successfully hundreds of times, that's confidence; when someone thinks the Amazing Nontouching Surgeon of the Philippines can removes tumors with passes of his hands, that's faith.
Sure we're conditioned to trust science. When the need awakens what do they look at? Scientific data. We've grown up with it. Why do you think the media touts scientific studies to promote something. We have faith in science.
What was the process of this conditioning? Since reinforcement is the essence of conditioning, tell me what rewards conditioned people to trust science? What punishments prevented their questioning of it? My reply, again (and again and again, as many times as you equivocate faith without evidence and confidence with evidence), is that we have been rewarded with the successes of science, with the material gains in quality of life, and those who reject the towering achievement of human intellect are punished with the consequences of their choice. Nothing more is necessary.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typos galore!

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 01-17-2007 9:33 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 01-18-2007 9:22 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 40 of 86 (377848)
01-18-2007 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
01-18-2007 9:22 AM


Re: Faith With or Without Evidence
If you can't separate a Faith as in religion from having faith in something, then our discussion probably won't progress.
Heh.
I am content with our exchanges as they stand. I invite any interested parties to make their own determinations on the question of equivocation.

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 01-18-2007 9:22 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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