islam

Are you familiar with the times in the OT in which these things take place? The prophet was Samuel, and he was bullied and so was God into allowing Israel to have a King just like other nations had living around them. That king was Saul. He was tall and handsome and for those reasons the Jews thought he'd make a good king. Well, Saul was a bad boy. The Jews had explicit instructions not to consult with 'wizards that peep'. They were to consult God in all matters. Knowing what befalls men when they do consult 'seers', and that is taking their eyes off God and going astray, the instruction was to destroy practicing magicians. That Saul had not done that is clear. Once he understood that he had fallen from grace and his life and kingdom were in shambles, he did the last abominable thing and consulted the witch of endor.
Why do I tell you all this? Salem etal was a horrid moment in history where rabid monsters used scripture to practice insanity. I don't believe those murdered exhibited any of the practices of a witch of endor.

That's interesting, Schrafinator. ALL Christians? I've been here for a while, I haven't tried to convert a single soul. Nor have I ever told anyone 'you must accept Christ, or else'. Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. I stay out of his way.
The people you cite? Which ones do actually emulate the character of Christ? You might wish to remember that learning of any kind, including learning Christ, is progressive. And even after much time, perfection is not achieved, not in any subject. You can never know everything about something.
Being charitable, however, does not take that much. Anyone can be charitable.

Truly it appears that you have the mind of a terrorist yourself. Single out a group that you are opposed to, then advocate genocide by whatever means necessary. However, I don't state this for "substanceless scoffing and insolent insults" as buz stated earlier. I just want you to recognize that your hatred and theirs is no different, and that both advocate the mass killing of innocents in the spirit of purging a perceived evil from the world.Do you truly think that by targetting Mecca, you would destroy the terrorists? You would destroy innocent worshippers even as the hiding terrorists used such actions to rally the world to their cause. You would destroy Americans, whose principles you claim to uphold, who just happened to be on a pilgrimage that their faith - which they have every right to follow, both by constitutional principles and by their rights as equal human beings - asked of them to make a pilgrimage.You wish to strike back at terrorism by killing millions of innocent Muslims who harbor no ill will towards you or your country. Regardless of passages from their holy book - whether it be that you misrepresent them out of context or that many simply don't believe in such passages, just as almost no Christians today follow the Holy Codes* - they have done nothing that warrants their death and yet you would kill them in a wave of hatred simply because of their faith. The upstanding businessman who gave blood in the weeks following 9/11 and continues to donate to charities to this very day - dead, because he is Muslim, even though he has no terrorist intentions whatsoever. The same goes for the poor beggar who clings to his faith through all that ails him; the child who is simply following his parents' best wishes in attending religious events; and anyone else, possessed of good or evil intentions, simply because they *might* fall into the latter category.This is not an answer.You keep referring to Muslims as our enemy, and this is where we continually feel that you are a bigot - combat the terrorists (of all beliefs, I might add, since the post I'm replying to mentions "Muslim terrorists" quite a bit) and their enablers. No, no, I know what you're going to say. Stop equivocating all Muslims with terrorists.You did not respond to my earlier post (for which I suppose I can't complain, since I accidentally included it in a reply to jar), so something I'd like answered... Message 143: {Note: Edited and added emphasis to certain parts in rewrite. If an admin objects, I will be glad to re-edit the original message and then link to it in this one; I figured it would be easier and more likely receive a reply from Jubela if I kept it together.}{Added in edit: Never mind, had a better idea - since the original was included in a reply to jar anyway, I decided it would be more effective to simply leave only this post and edit out the parts that weren't directed towards him in the original.}*Reading through much of Leviticus (too many individual quotes to list, I suggest trying bible.gospelcom.net), you'll notice that much of it is no longer followed (since, I gather, Jesus died so that you no longer would have to stone a woman for her adultery, etc.). Who's to say that mainstream Muslims don't see your quoted passages in a similar light?This message has been edited by Morte, 08-01-2004 01:26 AM

I believe she wrote that to show you the inherent stupidity in condemning ALL Muslims based on radicals, by doing the same in response to Christian radicals. In fact, you could make a pretty similar case for "send[ing] them all [Christians] to Hell" as Jubela wishes to do in reference to Muslims, were you to mention such groups and quote select Bible passages that advocate violence. Doesn't mean that it makes any more sense to do so... But that is basically what I see you as doing in an attempt to advocate hatred towards Muslims.In a similar way, concerning how you responded to the introduction of the KKK, the Inquisition, etc. (by claiming those weren't true Christians), I could just as easily say that the terrorists weren't true Muslims. ...I suspect that you would be about as likely to believe that argument as I would yours, however.

I do not have the proof. I ain't gonna go searching for the proof.
The fact is that Islam and Terrorism are synonymous terms. I shall now present factual evidence thereof:[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.[52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they shall be made to swoon (with terror):[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!Those are ayats from the Qur`an: the final and ultimate revelation of the will of Allah for the governance of all mankind.Book 14, Number 2635:Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.Volume 9, Book 92, Number 414:Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: The Prophet said,"A group of my follower swill remain predominant (victorious) till Allah's Order (the Hour) comes upon them while they are still predominant (victorious)."Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Abu Huraira narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said, "I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me."4.220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.Those are ahadith: the traditional reports of Muhammad's companions regarding what he said and what he did. The Hadith has canonical stature in Islam.As I stated: Islam and Terrorism are synonymous terms!

No they are not.Hitler marched under the christian cross, Eugenics marched under the christian cross, Anti-abolition did, manifest destiny did, emperialisim did, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and the whole world has at one time or another.This is the no true scottsman, you will say that all of the above were not perpetrated by true christians. Thing is, your full of it, cuz all of the above proffessed to be true christians! Indeed they upheld the bible and the cross in their belifes, and marched into battle proclaiming them.Where do they do it today? It sounds like freaks like you, foaming at the mouth with hate, sure would like it to be happening today wouldent they?Cuz if you had it your way there would be an all out holy war what with us, good christ loving christians, acting as terrorists ourselves. You sound like a freakin nazi.Christianity and the christain cause have caused far FAR more deaths thrughout the world than what Islam has ever done.Furthermore, your assertion falls flat on it face.Isreal has perpetrated great harm on the middleast, and they cant be excused by christ because they don't belive in him!So, by your logic, they are just as bad as islam. Because the Jewish bible, the OT, teaches much more heinus violence than the Koran. And the bodycount on the palestinian side is much higher than the jews.Again, you are equating the actions of a few, with the belife of many. Do you realize that there are litteraly millions of Muslems in the world? Some six million in the US alone. Many of which are not of arab descent. Surely you are not calling every single last one of them a terrorist?Tell me, are you the type that thinks every black man is a theif?Again, your belifes are stupid and unfounded. You take things out of context to push forward your ignorant, and intolerant belifes.This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-01-2004 01:43 AM

BTW Jubela,You conviniently avoided adressing any of the versus I quoted in my last post.Is this how you debate? By handwaving and browbeating?Very niceThis message has been edited by Yaro, 08-01-2004 01:47 AM

At the present moment, I am too tired to respond point by point to your poison."Innocent Muslim" is malignant malicious maundery! There is no such entity. Islam demands that every adherent "Obey Allah and his Messenger". Allah's orders which they are to obey include, but are not limited to the following:[3.151]
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe.
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes![8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.It is impossible to obey Allah and be innocent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Here is a sample of what they have to emulate in Muhammad:Book 14, Number 2635:Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.Volume 9, Book 92, Number 414:Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: The Prophet said,"A group of my follower swill remain predominant (victorious) till Allah's Order (the Hour) comes upon them while they are still predominant (victorious)."Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Abu Huraira narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said, "I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me."4.220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.It is impossible to emulate Muhammad and be innocent!!!Terror is endorsed by Allah. Terror was practiced by Muhammad. Islam and Terror are synonymous terms. This is objective factual reality. You do not like it. That is tough. Learn to live with it.

Muslim Terrorists are true Muslims; they are emulating Muhammad as they are obligated by Allah and sworn to do. These facts can not be repeated too frequently: Allah's orders to Muslims include but are not limited to:[3.151]
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe.
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes![8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.Muhammad's Sunnah, which all Muslims are sworn to emulate, includes, but is not limited to:Book 14, Number 2635:Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.Volume 9, Book 92, Number 414:Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: The Prophet said,"A group of my follower swill remain predominant (victorious) till Allah's Order (the Hour) comes upon them while they are still predominant (victorious)."Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Abu Huraira narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said, "I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me."4.220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.This is objective factual reality, drawn directly from canonical Islamic sources.

Oh? So muslem terrorists are true muslems?I know some muslems who would disagree. This sounds like the no true scottsmen again...so the inquisition and witchunts werent true christians.... but terrorists are true Muslems.And you are a good judge of this why?Why should we take the word of an intolerant bigot, who admitedly has done no reasearch into the religion beyond biased sources, knows no one associeated with the religion, probably hasn't left his trailor home since the sixties. Why should we give a crap about what you think of Muslems?Im done with this thread, its pissing me off, and it is obviously a waste of time. Im disgusted a that people like you are allowed to breed. See ya later, prefrebly behind bars.

There is nothing in the four Gospels telling Christians to engage in warfare, collect spoils of war, or use force to impose their doctrines on anyone.The Qur`an contains three Surahs entirely dedicated & devoted to the sanctification and mandate of Jihad. The Hadith has two books entirely dedicated and devoted to glorious tales of Muhammad's military expeditions and dividing the spoils thereof.Orthodox Islam, as defined and exemplified by Muhammad sanctifies and mandates wars of conquest. Orthodox Christianity, as defined and exemplifed by Jesus Christ does not. There is no moral equivalence!!!Christians who maim and kill innocents do so in defiance of the teachings of Christ. Muslims who maim and kill innocents do so in obedience to the teachings and example of Muhammad.Fact vs fantasy. In your world, fantasy wins. Your world is sadly deformed.

The Jews JubealaThe Jewsgoodbye

Facts, reason and logic win debates. Fantasy, distortion and diversion do not.Fact: these are ayats from the Quran; Allah's orders to Muslims:
[3.151]
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe.
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes![8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.Fact: these are ahadith describing Muhammad's interpretation of those divine rules:Book 14, Number 2635:Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.Volume 9, Book 92, Number 414:Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: The Prophet said,"A group of my follower swill remain predominant (victorious) till Allah's Order (the Hour) comes upon them while they are still predominant (victorious)."Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Abu Huraira narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said, "I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me."4.220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.Objective conclusion: Allah sanctifies Terror as a tactic of war. Objective conclusion: Muhammad used Terror as a tactic of war.
Objective observation: Muslims are engaging in Terrorism on nearly every continent. Muslims declare their intentions: to make Allah's Deen the Highest. To ensure that only Allah has the right to be worshiped. To rid the world of Jews. To subdue and subjugate Christians. Muslims thus engaged quote the Qur`an & Hadith to rationalize and justify their actions and to motivate other Muslims to join with them in their nefarious schemes.You can scream "You too!" until your throat is raw. You can post calumnies and fantasies until your fingers bleed. But you can not disprove objective factual reality!!!

Here, once again, we witness the triumph of emotion over reason. Facts that do not fit your world view must be arbitrarily dismissed. The Qur`an is real. It is the basis of Islam. It is accepted by Muslims as the final, ultimate & perfect recitation of the revelation of Allah. It is Allah's instruction manual for mankind.The Hadith are real. They are the traditional reccolections of Muhammad's companions -- passed down by oral tradition. They tell us what Muhammad said and what he did. The Hadith are Islam's workbook.
What would Muhammad do? What did Muhammad do? What did his successors do? What are his modern day followers doing? I have presented factual, truthful answers to those questions. I have posted hyperlinks to source materials and to scholarly analyses thereof. You choose to ignore them in favor of your fantasies. The conclusion is clear!!!

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Fortunately for us, our founders created the best economic & political system going. It ain't perfect, but it is far superior to all the rest.

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dude...you have got to be kidding your country is broke. If it weren't the satandard unit of trade for oil and *owned* the world bank you couldn't maintain the quality of life you have without anarchy and armed insurrection in the streets. Your political system is inherently flawed as shown by the farce of your illegally elected president yet you would force others to adopt practises and policies of reform based on a supposed superiority complex that is largely at fault for the earth in a state of haemoragging with pollution and global warming and creating a climate for terrorrist to thrive in ???

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I am not interested in visiting a nation of bigoted Cretins!

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wouldn't be much of a holiday seeing as how you already live in one. By any social and civilised indicator New Zealand rates above your country. I have no idea why you would think I am bigoted or cretinous methinks you have me confused with yourself.BTW can you tell me why 9/11 happened and how ???...without implicating the highest levels of power in your gov't and surely given your leaders newborn christian fundie beliefs passed on to the nation at large and through the military that would constitute carrying the cross into battle...Let's see what's the score again ??? about 3500 in total US casualties including 9/11 and conservative estimates of 20 000 in 2 theatres of war for "the enemy" and that's not including future generations linked to depelted uranium so yeah it'd be kinda wise not to assume the moral highground.So let me get this straight, your best hope of prosperity wiped out so you would condemn all muslims to death because you won't make as much money as you would like, and you want my sympathy ???...Man I'm laughing at you and pitying you at the same time for being such a loser.Ever think that the redistribution of wealth and confiscation of land is a major cause of terrorism ???No ???...Why???...cos it's what your country is built on. Stealing land and hoarding all the wealth while creating a climate of fear and consumption under the guise of freedom and democracy.Hypocrite !!!