former speed of light

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Yes, spiritual stars blew up too, it seems

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Unless what we are seeing might somehow be remmants of the split itself? In other words, maybe we don't fully understand all we see out there.

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Of course, this implies that what most people consider creation, that is when the universe came to be as we see it, isn't the real deal

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Would it not more imply that our present world we see, and where time, and death exist, isn't the real deal? Wouldn't this make it only a part of creation we can see, but not all of it? Yes, the split, and the flood may have had profounf effects on our lives, and world, but it still is part of creation. A very important part, this world of men.

To arkathon:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: I don't know...my version didn't speak of a horse. Mine just said that he fell to the ground. The word "horse" didn't appear anywhere in the whole of Act 22. You sure you didn't just make that up?What version of the bible are you reading from? So....sounds like our normal light to me. How is it spiritual? So apparently, Jesus spoke to Paul/Saul. How does this advance your case of "spiritual light"? Well, according to the verse, the "other people" saw some light and heard nothing while Paul/Saul also saw some light and heard someone speaking to him. So "light" seems to be present while we have a conflict in opinion for "voice". Sounds to me like either the other people are deaf or Paul/Saul was hearing voices in his head, or maybe Paul/Saul activiely engaged in some creative MSU. Santa Claus returns to the North Pole every year after Christmas. What happens to him?Snow White left the seven dwarfs in the forest and departed with ze prince. What happened to them? What happened to the apple that Snow White took a bite out of before collapsing into a senseless heap?The bible tells us of a "Heaven" that good Christians go to after they die. What do they do there?There are many ways I can answer your question. But then I would need to turn "creative thinking" in my head to "overdrive", thereby diverting valuable cognitive resources to a pointless venture. Big deal. Off hand I can think of 5 gasesous elements and 20 gaseous compounds that are "invisible" to the naked eye. What is your point? Do you even have a point? *Sigh* I can advance a theory where light is parted to produce wind, but it involves normal light, not spiritual. Light bulbs and fluorescent tubes in modern cities.Or flaming torches back in the Biblical times when the NT was written.Look at any major city at night. None of them needed a sun or moon "to shine it in". Edison invented the lightbulb, remember? How can you be so obtuse?! No doubt? No doubt? For the love of all that's alive and kicking, there is no evidence for any "special light" that has weird and wonderful qualities! And you have no doubts? You have just redefined the term "innovative self-delusion".Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

arkathon There is a serious error in your thinking. If we take the devil's advocate route and assume your p/s split occured and the light from the supernova arrived here instantly at the moment of "creation" 3500-6000 years ago and then slowed to todays paltry 300,000 km/s, we would no longer see the star nor could we expect to for another 180,000-{3500-6000} years.Now we must explain the appearance of every star that lays at a distance greater than 3500-6000 light years since their light cannot be reaching us yet.Please explain this.

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we would no longer see the star nor could we expect to for another 180,000-{3500-6000} years.

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OK, so why can we no longer see the star? Are you talking about because the light we have now takes that long to get there? Does this thought assume that light slowed down? If so, then I think we went over that. If not, do explain.
As far as the light coming to be in the physical here, the idea was not that something slowed down. It was that something different was there, then, something else assumed it's path, that was made to keep things flowing for man. So it wasn't a case of say photons slowing down, as much as 'mysteriousons' being replaced by photons, and such.
So we could not take the properties of photons and try to project them onto mysteriousons. (S)
The cosmic movie we could see kept playing, and coming at us, at the new speeds. The sequence of things coming at us, however, was now different.
(I wonder now in thinking about it, if, since it was spiritual light, even the sequence could be different? It's a bit far fetched, perhaps, but since it was God's light, and God's movie, so to speak, could it even have been that some things, say if they represented spiritual battles or something-that were beyond time, and maybe didn't even happen yet, might have been filtered out? So that just because we see some things in our present light, in a certain sequence, maybe in the spirit world the sequence was a little different!)
Anyhow, regardless of this last thought having any credence whatsoever, it should not, I think affect anything I can think of in this split model.

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You have just redefined the term "innovative self-delusion".

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Thank you, perhaps everyone is deluded but you.

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Sounds to me like either the other people are deaf or Paul/Saul was hearing voices in his head

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Yes Paul and friends were deaf, blind and dumb, and drugged and deluded, and should have paid for a satanic shrink! I guess Jesus on the cross talking to the father was in like state! And the three hours of darkness that fell on the earth was mass hypnosis. And He didn't raise from the dead, He just ate too much sugar that day, and ended up running around, then out of His grave, imagining angels guarding the tomb, as He left, and rolling the stone away! Noah, didn't really have a flood, he was just a bedwetter with an active imagination.
As far as the horse, I probably was remembering a scene from a bible cartoon depicting the event, maybe you're right there. But if there was no horse here, remember Balaam's ass, who saw what his rider could not see-an angel. Then the ass spoke, and then the rider saw the angel too. I guess the ass deluded the poor guy's mind, and projected his hallucenations on the poor chap!

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The bible tells us of a "Heaven" that good Christians go to after they die. What do they do there?

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Well, my guess is lots of sex. If it's anything like Eden, anyhow! They can fly, have golden mansions, esp type communication if they like, explore the universe, and have a laugh, and some wine. Maybe go to a concert, and a host of exciting things. Why, did you think they sat around on a cloud reading the bhagadavita?

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I can advance a theory where light is parted to produce wind, but it involves normal light, not spiritual.

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So you say you can, maybe. The question here is, when God was talking in Job here, was He refering to your possible little theory?

arkathonFrom your opening post. Perhaps I am misreading this but are you not saying that both physical and spiritual light travelled together at limitless speed to arrive here after which spiritual light left the physical realm and our ordinary physical light {the 300,000 Km/s kind} took over?
If so then the light we see from a supernova 180,000 light years away left that supernova 180,000 years ago.This contradicts the hypothesis you put forth of the creation taking place 6000 years ago.So you are left with a universe whose present speed of light shows stars that are older than the time of creation you claim.

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Perhaps I am misreading this but are you not saying that both physical and spiritual light travelled together at limitless speed to arrive here

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As I look into it, it seems that light in it's present state was a leftover, or replacement, for S, set up as something to exist here in the physical, and occupy the path or way of the parted S. Because the spiritual and physical worlds were split, in this model, I quickly thought of light as included. But light is sort of not really physical like a planet, etc. and so it seems more understandable to me to see it as something God left in place of S.
I think post 88 deals with this.

To arkathon:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Well, let's do a check, shall we?You're proposing the existence of something that cannot be proven, has no measurable physical properties, no longer exists, and was never explicitly mentioned in any reliable literatures (including the bible). Having produced no evidence or support for your pet-theory, you go on to conclude that: As a matter of fact, I can probably find more evidence for Santa Claus than "spiritual light" that travels at the speed of infinity.Yeap, your case fits the description of delusion, no doubt. Well, with truckloads of endorphines cruising around in his system and massive blood loss, Jesus was likely in a state of hallucination prior to his death. Solar eclipse, maybe? Do I have to answer EVERY question for you? Can you THINK for once? The case of Jesus' supposed resurrection was far from being a universally accepted event. If you wanted to know the opposing arguments, you may wish to visit the biblical inerrancy forum. Not that you would read any of the threads, of course. That would be far too threatening. A worldwide flood that left no geological evidence, nor a single mark in the history of civilisations that existed (and somehow miraculously NOT perished) at the time? Funny that you should use the "flood" and "active imagination" in the same sentence because I was thinking along the same lines.Oh! So no horse. That's ok. Just make sure your sources of information are correct next time. Especially on major points. The point is that it was unspecified and required guess work, just like the theory you're proposing on this thread. Don't use your uninformed, unsupported guesses to describe the world around you, or else you would look like a fool. Most probably not. But how does that validate your theory of "spiritual light"?Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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You're proposing the existence of something that cannot be proven, has no measurable physical properties, no longer exists, and was never explicitly mentioned in any reliable literatures

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Hey, we're not talking about missing links, and non existant transitional forms here! Neither vanished universe producing specks!! We are talking about a spirit world here. We are talking about God, and creation! Now He may not be as 'reliable' as some mental smut like fruadulent freud's drooling demonic dreams, but He still ranks a best seller! I showed lots of verses about light, how He is the light, and will light heaven, for example.

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As a matter of fact, I can probably find more evidence for Santa Claus than "spiritual light" that travels at the speed of infinity.

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God's circuit, or rounds, as it were is from one end of creation to the other. He is Infinite, what speed do you want to restrain Him to? "Before Abraham was, I Am"--So how much time do you think it takes Him?

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Well, with truckloads of endorphines cruising around in his system and massive blood loss, Jesus was likely in a state of hallucination prior to his death.

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So the creator of the world was just a demented lunatic, as He died there for you? Sorry, it sounds to me like your insanity is come to torment you ahead of it's time.

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A worldwide flood that left no geological evidence,..

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All you have to do there is give credit to something else for all the flood loss of life, and planet riddled with the fossils. Darkness indeed. Not an innocent darkness, but one that fights the light. Fight all you like, the light will overcome the darkness, and flee. I think the time of your blasphemy is ending here with me. No need to discuss bible, or religion, or such with you, you have chosen your place.
So, with some I would go on to demonstrating the bible's position on the model here, if there can be raised no scientific, or logical reasoning against it. Not with you, foul mouth lover of darkness, though. I've had enough of you insulting Jesus. So has His Dad.

arkathonFrom post #88 So again we have you stating that p and s travelled together initiallly instantaneously but then at the speed we now know. You would not be able to see light under the constraint of the physical because it is bound to the speed limit of 300,000 Km/s and will not be seen until it has had time to traverse the distance between us and the star. This is a contradiction since you are now saying it travelled at two different speeds the intantaneous light having travelled here in no time at all cannot also leave a trail of light moving at a slower speed than it since by your own admission it did not have the time to do so.Either way we are still left with a star that now shows an age measureably older than your creation model allows for.

Two things, arkathon... Probably not, because the supernova must have spread it's light before the actual split. I'm going to ask you to think over what you think physical mean. Going by this quote, you don't really seem to be completely sure.

To arkathon:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Oh for the love of dung beetles!The Harry Potter series was a best seller.The Da Vinci Code was a best seller.What does the popularity of a concept have to do with its truthfulness and validity? You must be at your wit's end if you're going to promote your position by sheer popularity.You know the similarities between Jesus and Freud? Their teachings are both dogmatic, which is the reason why Psychology rejected Freudian teachings as true science. Freud is now commonly regarded as the black sheep of Psychology rather than a role model, but of course, you do not know that... Where did any verse from the bible state the existence of "spiritual light" that travels past the speed of "normal light"? Any verses? Anything at all?Face it, "spiritual light" is a concept you made up to accommodate you YEC theory. It is not grounded on the bible. This makes no sense.What does this have anything to do with "spiritual light"?You're being ridiculously vague and nonsensical...you remind me of mike_the_wiz. Errrr....I claimed that Jesus may have experienced periods of hallucination on the cross as he was being crucified. Ask any medical officer and they will confirm the possibility. I never insinuated that Jesus was a "demented lunatic". You're just bitter.And as far as I'm concerned, he died. Since I wasn't born at the time, he couldn't very well have "died for me".My sanity or lack of is evident through the coherence and clarity of my posts. The worrying sign is that the ideas in your post are not very coherent or clear...hmmmmmmmm...... So the historic accounts of civilisations at the supposed time of the world wide flood (stating that there is, not surprisingly, NO worldwide flood) is not to be trusted? I don't know about darkness, but this argument of yours is decidedly very dim. If it makes any sense (and I'm not sure that it does) it certainly has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're being vague. Again. And here we have it, ladies and gentlemen! At last, here is the grand prize to top everything off. When my arguments surpass arkathon's, and he/she cannot refute them; when I have pointed out the flaws in his/her arguments, and he/she cannot defend them; when arkathon is facing the fact that he/she may be wrong, but cannot submit due to his/her overflowing faith and overwhelming ego, this is what he/she does: arkathon claims that my argument is "blasphemy", my position "dark", my reasoning "foul", and he/she never ever admits that he/she could have erred. Arkathon announces that he/she will go on preaching his/her flawed arguments to others - perhaps carefully avoiding the learned, the educated, the critical-thinkers, the intellectuals, and the skeptics.But it does not stop there, no! Arkathon has to emphasise that his/her position is the "light that will overcome the darkness" in the face of unchallenged refutations, and boldly proceed to ignore all threatening evidence or reasoning that he/she has encountered. When all else fails, he/she shuts his/her eyes and plug his/her ears and ignore the opposition, for anyone opposing his/her theories must surely be the devil's advocates and is therefore no match for the Bible's powers of ignorance-induction and self-delusion.Arkathon, I don't intend for you to consider my logic or reasoning, for these are "blasphemous" concepts to your faith. If you are happy to live your life with your head in the sand, be my guest. But your self-righteous retort (as opposed to strong logical refutations) strengthens my case all too well.Have a nice day.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

OK, so as I indicated, I don't have enough in common with you to discuss theology, or religion.
So, as this post contains nothin else, nothing here that requires thought, or reply. Nice speech, thanks for the good day wishes.

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So again we have you stating that p and s travelled together initiallly instantaneously but then at the speed we now know.

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Well I looked over the post 88 quote you included, and can't seem to see that one. I guess it was implyed by something I said. Anyhow, light, I would think that we now have was it seems to me not likely in it's present state, pre split. That's why I try to say it was the form of light we needed here that we got. Any properties S had, would have no such limitations as P. So either some part of p was in a different state in S, or p was simply put in place to fill the way of S after split.
The basic idea is there was a split of the spiritual world. Now how light exactly was affected, down to the nitty gritty, who can say? What did He need to do to put in place light that could exist in a physical universe, yet would give man no significant interuption in light of the stars?
I'd have to wonder what couldn't He do?

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You would not be able to see light under the constraint of the physical because it is bound to the speed limit of 300,000 Km/s and will not be seen until it has had time to traverse the distance between us and the star.

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The speed limit was not posted before in the light highway, in this idea, and only applies to p. Now I don't know if there was a zone that was like a sign 'saying speed change ahead', where like in a car, we adjust to the new limit over a distance, or time. Anyhow, the result, or present speed limit is well known. So, we can't read the speed sign now to the speed then. As far as traversing the distance, it was left to fill, in this idea, the whole path as it came to be, so the traversing would merely be continuing on it's merry way at the legal speed limit now.

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light having travelled here in no time at all cannot also leave a trail of light moving at a slower speed

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I could see what you say here being applicable to say, our light disappearing, and leaving a much slower light in it's place. But as far as S being parted from our dimension, it had totally different properties. How then could you know what it could or could not leave?
Personally I sense great mystery in the cosmos. I believe angels were refered to even, somewhere in the bible as 'stars'? I don't know if we can make too much out of this, but it kind of raises the hint of a possibility that some of the things way out there could be very different than we use our limited knowledge to conceive them.

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a star that now shows an age measureably older than your creation model allows

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Measured only by the current speed limit sign. I know the habit is deep seated to relate that to great time!
Even if I got the light thing somewhat imperfectly understood, as relates to a split, does not mean there could be nothing to it. That's one reason I put it out here, to pump out some different, and more informed imput.

No shit......!!!!!