Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?

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When I first was saved in 1993, I was at a charismatic church. The Pastor used to tell us that it was demonic to question authority, since all authority originated from God.

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Huh.I wonder, then, if your feelings of being "saved" or connected with God, or whatever, weren't just a reaction to the preacher, or something.If you don't believe he is correct about the demons and doubting and that is all in his imagination, then maybe the rest is, too?

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1) What type of evidence would you need to accept in order to confirm within your innate awareness (and rationality)an existent God?

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I don't quite understand.What do you mean by "innate awareness"?Rationally, I'd need the same sort of evidence you would need to confirm the existence of the FSM, Zeus, or invisible pink unicorns.

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2) Why does the concept of God lead you to link it with fear?

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Becasue that's the sort of god that's in the bible. That's the sort of gods that people who say they know of gods show us. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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By definition the Christian has ruled out other gods.

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So, what do you make of the fact that the greatest determining factor that decides what religion someone follows is the religion of their parents and the culture they were raised in?

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This is great. I'm breathing. Now I'm not infallible, so I recognize that there is some strange, remote possibility I could be mistaken about this fact. Just how much time should I spend doubting that I am breathing? Hmmm? What profound insight is to be gained? How will it profit me in any way to doubt that I'm breathing, just because I'm not infallible.

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I contend that there are dozens, nay hundreds of issues it is foolish to go about doubting. So teach me, if you can. Convince me that confidence is never warranted, or grant that some issues aren't worthy of doubt. Perhaps we can make progress from there.

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But I don't think we're talking about doubt in things that can be verified by a "disinterested observer", such as if you are breathing or not. In other words, objective things.I think we are talking about fearing to doubt one's subjective answers, such as religious beliefs.

Neither the AA or the Christian Step 3 would work for me.My life and my will are just that. My life. My will.I will share a personal story here.I was raised in an emotionally abusive home. I had learned a lot of survival mechanisms that helped me to defend myself against my parents' destructive and damaging teaching. When I went out into the world on my own, those same survival mechanisms did not work anymore and actually caused me to come into difficulties in personal interactions with others. I didn't understand that this was what was happening at the time it was going on, of course.In my early twenties, shortly after I got married, I fell into a fairly significant depression. I'd say it lasted a couple of years, during which I did an awful lot of work on myself. I stood in the self-help section of the bookstore with my heart pounding in panic becasue at that moment I admitted to myself that I was an adult survivor of childhood abuse. I was terrified of what that meant for me and my future.That fight or flight response abated enough for me to buy a couple of books and that was when I began my journey to a much healthier place. I relied on my husband a lot for support, and on my sister and brother, too. But knowledge and understanding were powerful tools that I was able to use to change the way I thought.I literally changed my behavior and the way I thought about myself nearly entirely through the force of my own will, and with support from a few who were close to me. I am now a very, very different person that the one I used to be, and it is because I changed.Now we come to my point in telling this story.I was the one who needed to do very specific things; I did the exercises and incorporated the behavioral modification techniques that I read about in the books. Nobody else could do that for me; ultimately, I made the change happen. Who else could?I have absolutely no idea how "turning one's life over" to anyone or anything could have possibly helped me. One of the most useful things I learned during my recovery is that I am the only one who controls me. Nobody can "make" me feel or do or believe anything. If I want to change something about me, it's up to me to do it. I can get support and encouragement and understanding from others, but it is up to me to make it happen and make it stick.Giving up one's will seems to take away personal power at the moment we need it the most. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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An artificial distinction.

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Wow.So, to you there isn't any difference between "objective" and "subjective"?Tell me then, how would you feel if your doctor said that she wanted to give you a new drug because the people at the drug manufacturing company really prayed hard about it and they have a lot of faith that it's not going to poison you and will cure your ailment?

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The only thing preventing a "disinterested observer" from verifying most of these things is the lack of such an entity.

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Huh?My point was that theoretically, any number of observers who don't have any interest in seeing any particular outcome of a test will return the same result.Pick a hundred random people to observe if you are breathing or not, and the vast majority of them will find the same result. That is what is meant by "objective".On the other hand, we cannot do this for your thoughts. Nobody but you knows what they are. Nobody can detect them but you, and you are the opposite of an "disinterested observer". That is "subjective"

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Even so, truth is truth. Those who diligently seek it will find it; and those who don't will not.

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But "subjective" truth is only true for an individual. "Objective" truth is true for everybody, no matter one's personal beliefs.A person might personally believe that they can jump off a tall cliff and survive, but the objective truth of physics that applies to everybody trumps his personal "truth".

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People dissociate objectivity, logic, and rational thought from emotions (thanks largely to Spock and Data, IMO). But they have a logic of their own. Is the loyalty of a dog not something that can be rationally, logically, objectively observed? Or did people just decide to arbitrarily make it up?

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I really don't understand how this is relevant to the topic.

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Likewise trust isn't without basis. Just think of anyone you trust or distrust and ask yourself whether or not you have a reason. How is 'religion' anything other than trusting God (or for some, priests and other delegates)?

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"Trust" and "faith" are very different things.

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What disturbs me, is that you are so proud of yourself.

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Why shouldn't I be? I worked damn hard to change myself into more of the kind of person I always wanted to be. Why shouldn't I celebrate it and appreciate my ability to recover?

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And you look down your nose at those who are weak (as you still are).

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I am not trying to look down my nose at anyone. I just have no clue why someone who is struggling with life would think it is a good idea to just give up on themselves.

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You project strength in ordeto protect yourself from being hurt again.

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No, that's what I did before I did the work to recover.I don't have to put up walls and protect my self anymore because what most people say to me doesn't affect my core feeling of worthiness. If people have issues with my behavior, then I can endeavor to change that behavior, but I no longer think of myself as less-than like I used to.That makes me actually strong. I don't need to project anything.

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And you are worshipped by many for that image you project.

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Excellent! I always wanted to be worshipped by many!

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Still alot of healing to be done in that heart of yours Nator.

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Funny how some religious people need to imagine all unbelievers as unhappy and unfulfilled, isn't it, even if the unbelievers sincerely say that they are happy and fulfilled? And it is equally funny how religious people seem to think they know the hearts and minds of unbelievers much better than the individuals themselves, isn't it?Please refrain from the patronizing attitude, rob. Edited by nator, : spelling

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Evidently you find much more confidence in trusting yourself.

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Well, it's this body that I steer around and make speak and do things. If I want to change the way I think and speak and do, then it's up to me to do it. I can get help and knowledge from lots of others, but those are only tools.Who else can build a better me but me?The same is true for everybody.

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The main concept I wished to convey is that we agree that our environment is dysfunctional. Some personal environments more so than others.

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But in saying that, we are creating in our minds an image of what 'healthy' and functional is.

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No, "healthy and functional" is as "healthy and functional" does.

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Nator, you said it is my life, and my will.

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But that is not true... You didn't create yourself,

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That's not entirely true. I "create" myself every day. Years ago, I re-created myself quite radically when I decided that I didn't want to behave like my old self behaved. Of course, the "project" that is me is never finished, and I will continue to change and grow (I hope!) until my last moment.

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and you are not an island. We have a responsibility to each other, and the fact you respond to me proves that you do care what others think.

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Of course I care what others think.However, I am careful in who's advice I take.

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Yes. I suppose winding up on a cross does not appear sensible to you...

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LOL!I was alluding to YOUR advice, genious, not Jesus'. Or, do you think you actually ARE Jesus these days?And how arrogant of you to assume that I haven't heard about Jesus before. I was raised a Christian, Rob. I was a believer. I had many years of religious instruction. None of this is new to me.So, why are YOU afraid to doubt any part of your belief, Rob?

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Umm... Well, if it is indeed so, I'd say the atheistic indoctrination policies have a long way to go before they can claim success.

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Huh?

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I predict the movement will increasingly try to separate children from parents and pursue every means available to fragment families.

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What "movement"?

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I'm not sure where this leads, but it'll take work to keep it on topic.

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Maybe "children tend not to doubt their parents" is what you're getting at?

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What I'm getting at is your statement:

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By definition the Christian has ruled out other gods. I'm not aware of any that can really compete. I know of only one God who even claims to have sent His Son to suffer and die for me. Is it rational or irrational to conclude that He loves me more than the wanna-be's?

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My point is that most people don't truly "choose" their own religion. They generally are indoctrinated into a general category of faithy as children (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, etc) and that's where they stay as adults. Very few people are raised with no religion at all and then, once they begin asking questions, are encouraged to go on a comprehensive spiritual search of the thousands of world religions to find the one that speaks to them. Rather, the vast majority stick with what they were taught, or something very similar. Culture also has an influence here, obviously. If you grow up without religion in your family but are surrounded by Christians, celebrate Christian holidays, see Christians on TV, hear about politician's Christian beliefs, and see Christian churches on every other corner in most towns and cities rather than, say, Hindus and Hindu temples, you are quite a bit more likely, wouldn't you say, to think about Christianity as a "normal", viable religion to consider. If you DO decide to embrace a religion is is quite likely that you will embrace Christianity, especially if you have never even met a single Hindu or have never seen a single Hindu temple, or don't know the first thing about the Hindu religion.So, for you to claim that your personal version of the Christian God is the "real" one is a rather naieve statement. It assumes that everybody truly "chooses" their religion.I contend that region and parentage "chooses" most people's religion for them. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Nator, I want you to listen to me... there is no part of my belief (that I am aware of), that I have failed to examine with such maniacal scrutiny as to send the 'merely religious' among us, running for cover in fear of their lives.

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But you've stopped doubting, right?Why?

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Not much arrogance left here... it dies daily, though admittedly kicking and screaming like the devil it is.

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The minute you stop preaching and start actually responding to what people write here, I'll say that you've lost your arrogance.Anybody who relentlessly nags others to convert to his religion is insufferably, enormously arrogant.Can you think of who I am referring to, Rob?

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A flawed example. The "subjective truth" wasn't truth at all.

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Right.That's exactly my point, so the example was the opposite of "flawed".Remember what I wrote:But "subjective" truth is only true for an individual. "Objective" truth is true for everybody, no matter one's personal beliefs.In my example, the person who thought he could jump off a cliff and survive was wrong, but he was only shown to be wrong when he put his subjective belief to the test.Let me try another example.You go to a museum and see a painting that you find beautiful. In a poll of museum attendees for that day, you are the only person who found that particular painting beautiful.Can we then say that you are wrong that the painting is beautiful?No, of course we cannot, because what individuals find beautiful is subjective only to them.Religious faith is subjective.Remember, this is what you were responding to when I jumped into the fray: And you replied:

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I'm breathing. Now I'm not infallible, so I recognize that there is some strange, remote possibility I could be mistaken about this fact. Just how much time should I spend doubting that I am breathing? Hmmm? What profound insight is to be gained? How will it profit me in any way to doubt that I'm breathing, just because I'm not infallible.
I contend that there are dozens, nay hundreds of issues it is foolish to go about doubting. So teach me, if you can. Convince me that confidence is never warranted, or grant that some issues aren't worthy of doubt. Perhaps we can make progress from there.

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Now, there is a big difference between the objective question, "Is CTD breathing?" and the subjective question, "What is the validity of CTD's personal insights about the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus, the truth of Christian doctrine, etc."?

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I trust you'll have no problem explaining this great difference, in that case.

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One "trusts" because there is evidence to warrant it.One has "faith" in spite of there being no evidence to warrant it. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Like when I said "Maybe 'children tend not to doubt their parents' is what you're getting at?"

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Sort of, but that is too simplistic an answer, as I explained in my last post that you are avoiding answering in any detail, apparently.

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Of course you can't simply reply "yes."

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No, not when "yes" is a woefully inadequate way to address the issue I was dealing with.

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You have to call my view "a rather naieve statement", while saying the same thing in a lot more words. Am I supposed to be impressed, or confused?

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Ideally, you are supposed to respond to the argument.BTW, I was going to call your view "ignorant" but I chose "naieve" because most people find the use of the other word insulting.And dude, your posts have been pretty ripe with swagger and disdain since you got here. If you can't take it you shouldn't dish it out. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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It's not my religion. It was started by a man named Jesus. (The guy you respect right?) All started in earnest when He rose from the dead.

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Stop being willfully obtuse, Rob.You know perfectly well that I was talking about "your religion" in the sense of "the religion you are promoting to others and believe in yourself."It's asanine, childish games like this that really make you incredibly annoying, Rob.

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You're the one who doesn't doubt. You know you're right don't you?

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No.I have no idea if I'm right about the existence of God. I'm not even sure if the answer is knowable by anybody. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning