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Author | Topic: God is cruel | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes: God is not cruel, but the consequences that our sins bring upon us are very cruel indeed. But God, being a merciful good God, has given us a way out, even sacrificing His own Son to pay for our sins so that we can be set free of them. So if God is so merciful why doesn't he simply put us back to the pre-fall position? instead of holding us all responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve however many thousands of years ago? why doesn't he make himself plain to us so we can actually exercise this "free will" he has endowed us with? Free will is worth nothing if you are not fully presented with all the choices. You yourself state that we do not currently have the ability to discern what is evidence and what is not. So, if God is fair, and merciful, the least he should do is give us the ability to make an informed, intelligent choice. Your understanding of the fall means we do not have this ability so long as our judgment is clouded.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
So.. back to the question of God being all-powerful or not.
apparently not if he is bound by 'justice' what is Just about punishing humanity for the actions of two people thousands of years ago?What is just about tens of thousands of children.. innocent children dying in agony from starvation each day? faith in msg 4 writes:
Free will is not free will if we do not have the capability to make an informed intelligent choice. we have only a very faulty ability to discern God, and since our intellectual abilities are flawed our ability to discern empirical evidence is likewise not trustworthy.you have said that we cannot trust our own judgement or decisions. So.. what makes you so certain your decision (wrt Christianity) is the right one?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
catholic scientist writes: Evertime you make a decision between right and wrong you get that chance; when you choose wrong, you are 'eating the apple'. Seems there's a lot more chances for us to screw up than there was in Adam and Eve's years. they were forbiddden from eating an from a tree. Seems nowadays we're all doomed from the word go... unless (according to some evangelicals) you believe, in which case nomatter what you do, you're destined for heaven. and.. even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil? justice indeed
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes:
Even if it is merely as a construct to attribute morality to?
You may have just proved the necessity of the existence of God,
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Why does it seem that? Original sin. (if you subscribe to that notion)
creavolution writes: even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil? catholic scientist writes:
So why then do you believe
I have no idea.catholic scientist writes: Evertime you make a decision between right and wrong you get that chance; when you choose wrong, you are 'eating the apple' This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-03-2006 05:36 PM
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
RiveRrat writes:
NO.. I can't.. I'd like to think she does, and all the evidence says she does (30 years of worrying about me, picking me up when I fall, fixing my cuts and bruises etc.. etc), but It can't be proved. Can you prove that your mother loves you?
your point?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
dorfman writes:
And that seems just to you? that seems fair to you? Adam passed that participation on to all mankind the same way a mother on crack affects her offspring. Is this the 'merciful' God you worship? A god that would make a child's life horrific because of the actions of it's mother? how can you possibly justify such a thing? you can have him.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Has he provided any evidence that HE does?
NOw I have evidence that leads me to believe my mother loves me, she bore me, fed me, clothed me, kept me safe.. etc. That much I know, that is evidence. As far as I am concerned I have no evidence that a God has taken this same time and effort to guard my well being. in fact you could say that my mother was protecting me all these years from 'acts of god', with out my mother, and left to fend for my self I would have surely died. I don't think God would have giuded me through life with no other human input.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
riverrat writes: Everything is evidence if He exists. It's up to you do choose whether it's from His love or not(even the bad). Just like your mother's actions Pure speculation, Everything is evidence for an existance, but does not point in any way to the existance of a god.I have met, interacted, witnessed my mother and her love. The same cannot be said for God Please explain why you feel that 'everything' in evidence for God?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
RiveRrat writes: So in short, because I believe He exists, based on what I feel, then when I look at everything, there is a root feeling inside of me that screams that it is all from Him. I can completely accept that you may get an overwhelming feeling of welbeing, of goodness, of love. That you will search for an explanation of everything around you, and God, in one respect is an easy solution, it provides answers, a set of instructions, which if followed will make everything better Unfortunately you lose at the very point that you attribute that feeling to God... From my point of view this is your way of applying meaning to something you cannot understand, 'God' is a very easy way to do this, I can't accept this, because the notion of God is unsupportable and contradictory. I guess (and i mean no offense by this, just explaining how I see it), I view this as pure self delusion, with the very real (and beneficial) effect of providing inner peace, peace in the knowledge/belief that you know what is causing these feelings. peace in the knowledge/belief that all that is unknown will be taken care of by god. But, i would side with Dan here when i say you do not choose to believe in something. Or rather, your belief in something in no way makes it real.If it really were that easy I would choose to believe in Santaclaus, the easter bunny, happy endings. They would be no more likely to exist due to my belief. but they would be no more likely to cease to exist due to my disbelief. To believe in something, it has to present itself(or be presented) as something believable, possible, and likely. Otherwise I fear i do not have the capability to believe in it. This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:25 PM edited to fix quote This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:26 PM
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
dorfman writes: Neither mercy nor justification are subject to emotion. Both are effectively worked out with logic and reason, and certainly with intelligence. that seems to add up to a strong possibility for a cruel God. no emmotion, just logic and reason. You feel it is logical and just to punish mankind in its entirety for the actions of two people?You think it's fair that an innocent child should suffer because it's mother was a crack-head? is that just? don't answer with a queastion... simply answer mine. dorfman writes:
I know what to expect..because I'm aware that there is no god to intervene in these things. and don't look for health when the decision was made for deathI'm asking you.. from the point of view of the child... is it fair? is justice being served? Do you think all of humanity should be punished if one man commits murder? or adultery? would this be Just? This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:36 PM
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
catholic scientist writes: What about when you're faced with a challenge that seems unlikely for you to complete...do you just give up or do you have faith in yourself and try? If that challenge is reasonable, yes, I know me, I know what I'm capable of, years of practice has helped me learn my limitations. however, if that challenge was to, say, jump off a cliff and float gently to the ground, I have vary little faith in that happening. Similarly, i find it impossible to have faith in a God which (if he exists) to me seems cruel, jealous, heartless and vindictive. Do I want to spend eternity with abeing who allows such hateful things to happens, which allows such pain anguish and suffering on such a massive scale?no, I do not.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
dorfman writes:
I don't see how this is true.. but I'm going to run with it. ALL humanity IS punished when one man commits murder or adultery.is this Just? is this fair? should I suffer because someone far away, with no connection to me decides to spend the night with a hooker?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I understand you've heard these things manytimes here, but I've never, ever seen them answered satisfactorily.
riverrat writes:
I'd like to think I'm quite an open minded, agnostic person. but it wouldn't hurt to keep your eyes open.My eyes are open but thus far there's been nothing to see.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
catholic scientist writes: Weirdo. I'm pretty much in control of my thoughts a little test then.. don't think about green elephants....make a real effort not to think about them, get all images of green elephants out of your head. having much success?
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