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Author Topic:   How determined are you?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 64 (256064)
11-01-2005 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-01-2005 9:17 AM


If folk think everything isn't pre-determined along the lines laid out above, on what basis to they hold the view they do?
On the basis that the fundamental laws of the universe are not deterministic. God does play dice with the universe, as they say.
If this brand of Determinism is the reality, how could it be that blind initial conditions resulted in a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws (us) arriving at the conclusion that they are a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws.
If that's what they are, why would they arrive at any other conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 9:17 AM iano has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 64 (256279)
11-02-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
11-02-2005 11:37 AM


That they no longer apply means the problem is in the our tools ability to measure. Not that the laws of nature cease to operate in the way it operates at time 10 -43 and greater.
Historically, that's been one interpretation of quantum uncertainty; that it's just a measuring problem.
Now, via ways that I don't understand and couldn't possibly explain, it's possible to test that. That is, a model where uncertainty is just an engineering problem makes different predictions compared to amodel where uncertainty is a fundamental constraint on the universe; that is, not only do we not know for sure the exact position of a certain particle; but the particle doesn't know either. It's precise position is uncertain because it does not have a precise position.
We can test the difference between predictions made from these two competing models, and the models that explain uncertainty as simply a measuring constraint are never as accurate. To the best of our ability to measure, they're wrong.
The best scientific conclusion is that randomness and uncertainty exist in the universe at a fundamental level, not as simply a measuring problem. We can't measure precise positions because at that tiny level there are no precise positions, only statistical positions (i.e. "this particle is 93% here.")
This could be computed if only there was a way to compute all the forces involved.
Again, no, it couldn't. The fundamental nature of the universe makes this impossible. It's not just a measuring problem; the universe itself is random on a very fundamental level.
If there is only matter/energy and laws which of these is going to act contra to the only way it can act under the circumstances.
What people are telling you is that there's no such constraint - there's no situation where there's only one outcome of a given configuration or interaction of matter according to physical laws. The laws themselves incorporate randomness and nondeterminism at a very fundamental level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 11:37 AM iano has not replied

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