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Author Topic:   Thou Shalt Not Kill - Except......?
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 36 (371846)
12-23-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
12-23-2006 12:09 PM


Re: Thou shalt not murder
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
I don't agree with the penalty, even though I understand that it is instituted by the virtue of the sanctity of life. "Whoever sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God, He made man." -Genesis 9:6
You need to back up a few chapters:
quote:
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
When God Himself was the Judge, Jury and Executioner, guess what - no execution.
Jesus took a similar tack with the adulterous woman:
quote:
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
No man is qualified. Only God can judge.
Even if killing is justifiable under God's direct cammand - as is purported at various times in the Old Testament - you'd better be pretty @#$%ing certain that it is God's direct command.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-23-2006 12:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-24-2006 1:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 36 (372032)
12-24-2006 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
12-24-2006 1:54 PM


Re: Thou shalt not murder
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
God exiled Cain and accursed him to be a restless wanderer.
quote:
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
God put a mark on Cain to prevent anybody from "executing" him. That's a far cry from God condoning capital punishment, don't you think?
You seem to be shifting back and forth that God isn't the judge, but that He is. And that God doesn't want us to kill, but He does...?
Okay, I'll type verrry slowwwly....
Some people claim that the Old Testament condones capital punishment. But when God Himself was in sole command of the ship, no human justice systems in place, no stone tablets or Levitical law to muddy up the waters, He forbade anybody to kill the very first murderer in the history of the world.
That's what we call "precedent". Anything that comes after has to be understood in the context of the precedent. So, if you think God condones capital punishment later on in the Old Testament, you have to ask yourself why He didn't use it Himself when He had the chance.
In the New Testament, Jesus was presented with a case in which capital punishment was supposedly prescribed by law. He pointed out that no man is qualified to be the executioner. Now, do you suppose that men are magically qualified to be the executioner when Jesus isn't present?
I also broadened the scope of the question to cases in the Old Testament where the writers claimed that God told them to kill Canaanites, etc. I suggested that if you think God is telling you to kill somebody, you had better be pretty ***-damn, mother-****ing sure that it is God telling you and not just the Charles-Manson voices in your head. And that applies whether you think God is telling you to kill Sharon Tate or Charles Manson.
Clear, I hope?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-24-2006 1:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-24-2006 4:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 36 (372116)
12-25-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-24-2006 4:31 PM


Re: Thou shalt not murder
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
God does condone capital punishment, as evidenced by the scriptures.
Only if you cherry-pick your scriptures.
I quoted scripture where God forbade capital punishment. That is the only "untainted" account in the Bible - it says, "God did this...." Every other account that does condone capital punishment is just some guy saying, "God told me to do this...." It's Charles Manson justifying himself.
Furthermore, the only time that Jesus was presented with the option of capital punishment, He demonstrated why God doesn't condone it.
God doesn't want to judge a single soul.
Then He doesn't have to. Period. Case closed.
And when we fail, which He knows we will, He would rather show mercy instead of punishment....
Then He can. Period. Case closed.
The Law is in place, 1. So we understand what He wants. 2. To break our pride in thinking that we can keep the entire law all of our lives.
No. The law is in place to help us get along with each other. That is what He wants.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-24-2006 4:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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