What is Your Worldview?

I'm here along with the rest of the universe by the choice of an infinite supreme being, who, believe it or not, gives a care about what he created. What our five senses percieve in three dimensions through moments in time is not the complete picture. Reality is not always what it seems.There is a spiritual dimension(s). A struggle goes on inside every person and between all people to adhere to good, shun evil, find purpose, gain humility, and ultimately allow the Spirit's influence over our life.Our designated purpose for being here is to enjoy life in all its ups and downs, enjoy work, enjoy the company of others, and to learn about, love, serve, and glorify our creator. Death is merely the beginning of a greater life free from the corruption of the flesh.

Mr Hambre, I could just as readily say that during the minute it takes me to write this post people are being helped, cold evil hearts of men are being changed, friends are comforting each other in losses, friends are rejoicing in blessing, husbands and wives are blissfully joined in an intimate and loving relationship, poor and hungry are being fed and watered, and freedom and prosperity is being spread.Dawkins' assessment of the physical universe is accurate. We live in a ruthless world. But somehow, the harsh nature of the physical universe ends, and the kingdom of heaven begins in the hearts and minds of those who are open to God's Spirit in all its goodness.

Thank you for your reply. And I'd have to respectfully disagree with you because everyone has beliefs, but not everyone is cynical, cruel, and ruthless. Although I've never been comfortable with that touchy-feely vernacular I've since found deeper meanings to the words describing "God's Spirit" so I think they are appropriate. Sure, just like a belief in freedom allows some to justify anarchy and antiestablishmentarianism (wow thats a big word); a belief in women's rights allows some to justify abortion; a belief in peace allows some to justify pacifism in face of an immanent military threat; a belief in hard work allows some to justify neglect of family;... do you get the picture?"Faith without works is dead." What a person believes or says they believe may have nothing to do with kind of spirit they have and good they produce. ...well... after my long and tedious debate with Holmes, I must include the modifier "external" to meaning and purpose to say that without God there is none because the LAST definition in the dictionary allows a kind of meaning and purpose to be found after the fact.I'm not sure what you mean about the having balls and the after life part... I'm just stating what I believe the truth to be. More than anything else, I am interested in the truth.

ETA: copied by mistake.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 08-31-2004 07:17 PM

I really, have no time anymore, but I'll certainly try to clarify.I believe our life is di- or trichotomous. I'll try to describe it as best I can. There is physical life, soul life, and spiritual life. Physical life is the consciousness produced by synapses and neurons. Soul life is the metaphysical consciousness and "baggage" that we carry with us after death. Spiritual life is the spirit of God created in us when we come to know Him.Now I'm sure many would say that the physical life which is produced by the brain matter is the only life we have and our person or self is solely contained in the chemical reactions in our brains. But our physical life has the ability to recognize aspects of the spiritual world that are manifested in qualities such as good and evil, love and hate, truth and falsehood, etc...To me, it no longer matters how these abstract aspects of our life have become so foundational and resounding within us. The fact is they are real, and because I believe in God as the cause of all reality, I believe these things manifested themselves in us for a reason. There is a deeper dimension to life beyond the physical. I think the physical world is embedded in the spiritual world, but the struggle going on in the spiritual world usually only manifests itself for us to see in the hearts and minds of men. Why the struggle? I don't know... Adventure, contrast, illustration of the character of God, and it seems like everything really satisfying in life comes after great struggles and contrasts in life. Without tyrrany we take freedom for granted. Without war we take peace for granted. Without poverty we take prosperity for granted. Without snobbery we take benevolence for granted. Without separation from God we take union with God for granted. I believe we are spiritual beings in that there is unseen unfelt unique individual life in us beyond the neurons in our brains that is struggling to be free from this life and come into the peace and presence of God.Contrary to your views of single universal consciousness that we sort of merge back into after death, I believe that we remain unique individuals after death, but with the boundaries between us and God removed (for those who want to know him).I believe the path a person's spirit takes is not entirely dependent on a person's physical mind. In other words, I don't think our choices are purely determined by physical factors, but I do think they are influenced by them. Many times people completely change their lives and spiritual attitudes without any physical change.For example: part of my body may try to tell me to do the wrong thing and my mind might tell it to do another. One choice may be good and the other bad. It is the Spirit God has put in me that is in control if I choose good.Or an example of a different sort: I might get alzheimers as I grow old and lose my ability to make decisions and function. Just because my physical life is deteriorating does not mean my spirit has been destroyed. On the contrary, when I die, my spirit will be free from the prison of the corrupted flesh.By struggling against temptation and by gaining victories in truth and goodness, God grows our spirit within our hearts. Our flesh is corrupt in that it influences us to be selfish, to do wrong, and it is only sensing of the physical world. It also has limitations. Our heart, the focus of our mind, is sensing of the spiritual world. If we choose to know and love God, and do what is right, God's spirit is within us growing our spirit.God knows how we are bounded by our physical bodies and so he sent Christ to demonstrate his love and forgivness so that we may have new life unseparated from His Spirit. God knows our limitations and we can expect him to be fair in judging us. Even if a person never gets to choose to know him, God gives him His spirit by default. Only those who reject God, will not have God's spirit living in them when they die. How can God's Spirit live in what hates Him? God cannot hate himself.well I've rambled on enough.. and I'm dead tired. Hope I've made myself somewhat clear... as we've discussed before, words fail in trying to describe such things. I suppose they must be felt with the heart.

Heh... I guess, if there is no God, religion is an illusion to create a purpose for living the fleeting illusion of life. However, if there is a God, both life and belief are as real as can be.

Thank you for your reply. And I appreciate it when people like yourself show me when I am being unreasonable so that I can refine my arguments. So whenever there is a fallacy in some argument of mine feel free to point it out. I'd hardly say we're making up our beliefs as we go along, only the rational arguments to support them. As far as the price to pay for rejecting God, I don't think it is TOO far off what you believe will happen to you anyway after death, but that's another subject. So my search for the truth is wrong and subjective because the truth I believe I have found has negative outcomes for some? How consistent is that with reality? Aren't there negative outcomes for the decisions of many in life already? Why should we not expect the same to hold true after death? What is NOT good is those who seek a "truth" the most comfortable truth to agree with their emotions. My reason tells me that no one can force anyone to love them, even God who is infinitely worthy of it. Love is inherently a choice. If a person doesn't want God, he gets what he wants. The Bible tells me a Holy God will not abide with those who reject him and do not have his Spirit.Of course you are free to reject the premise of my argument: there is a God that desires a relationship with us. In this case we just have to agree to disagree on our worldviews. No, but we can somewhat define and quantify the good or fruit of the spirit which includes wise application of these and other abstract principles listed above. So you agree that we can generally agree on that which is good. And good is an emergent property by whatever means. And of this you can ask the same question of anything else in existence: why? No, you don't have to just take my word for it. "I will show you my faith by my good works." And you can reason it out for yourself... if you accept the things of the Spirit... haha.. (sorry, I know how ambiguous and stupid that last part sounds, but you wouldn't understand unless you understand) I have, but to correct you, I don't believe an atheist's life is meaningless. You do. (and again I must add the qualifier "externally") Is good an emotional quality? You've agreed above that we can generally come to consensus on what is good by our reason so it must not be an emotional quality. We can't really pin it down on purely physical causes, but even if we could, again, that still doesn't answer the question of why. I think it is a spiritual quality. You have no idea why we are in the reality we are experiencing right now. You can't explain why there should be something rather than nothing. You cannot explain why the laws of the universe continue to function or why time marches on. Furthermore, you cannot explain why this life that exists should be wonderful or horrible, or why abstract qualities like good, evil, right, wrong, love, freedom, knowledge, wisdom, consciousness and all things that make this life interesting should fill our lives.You are content to believe there is no reason; I see a reason and purpose for it all. I believe God has created all of this and you do not. Neither one of us can prove logically to anyone's satisfaction that God exists; however, starting with the belief that He does exist, I am trying to rationally extrapolate the consequences of his existence with respect to the reality that also exists. Communist/atheist Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. proves that unbelievers are just as capable of "great violence". Stalin alone killed more people than Hitler did. Just because a person believes in God doesn't mean God's Spirit is in them. "Even the demons believe in God -- and shudder." Good. And where did these qualities come from? And why do they exist? If you think I'm just sitting around waiting for some kind of payoff at death, you are SORELY mistaken and have no understanding of my worldview. My new life is NOW; it doesn't just begin when I die. And that is a great way to use our imaginations, but even if you can know the HOW, you can never know the why, unless you believe God is the reason why. I see nothing wrong with combining our reason and imagination to to answer the perfectly valid question of "why?". Worldviews must answer the question "why?".How does your worldview address that question?

... umm.. sure, I guess it depends on what you consider to be real.I see what you are saying. Yep! Back with all my buddies on Flooders (our dorm floor) and back to classes. I'm having a GREAT time.

So you think that if all religious belief disappeared, then we would have a utopia? I think you are mistaken. Beliefs have been used to justify the full range of activities both good and bad. Converting everyone to atheism would not eliminate all the other problems of humanity and friction between peoples. In fact, belief in God has served many times as a lubricant between peoples. And without the comforting answers to all the "why's?" I suspect there would be even more friction. Haha... Do you shudder with fear every time a jet flies overhead? Of course not. Jets don't kill people. People kill people.About my avatar: I've loved aircraft and the military for as long as I can remember. There's nothing like flying, especially in a marvel of a machine like the F-18 superhornet. Its my dream to serve in the Marine Corps as a fighter pilot and be the man in that picture. I enjoy any kind of competition and combat. Do I enjoy war? Of course not. But I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others. Because without them we wouldn't be sitting here in our cozy chairs, knowledge at our fingertips, and freedom to speak our minds. You should be glad there are courageous and honorable men flying the aircraft in my avatar picture that so upsets you, because they are there protecting YOUR freedom and prosperity. I don't condemn you. I disagree with you. And I'm glad you're here for me to disagree with.

Thank you for your reply. As I said, I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others. That is precisely what Jesus Christ did. Yep. Jesus said if someone strikes you turn the other cheek. He did not say if someone murders your son offer him your daughter to murder as well. No He didn't. When you figure out what it means to be a Christian, you let me know.Look, lets not turn this into a debate on whether God wants us to be strict pacifists or not and when violent force is justified. That is another topic. And due to their actions you are free to sit there and call them as such.

Hey Phatboy,I did it. I was right on the line between libertarian and authoritarian and about 3 spaces to the right (about 1/3 of the way down the line to the right).I'm not sure how accurate it is though... Many questions I could have gone either way on depending on how you look at it or what other stipulations are involved.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 09-03-2004 02:06 AM

IOW, (and correct me if this is not what you are asking) would I give my life so someone with Contracycle's views could live in a free society? Absolutely. Like in Bourne Identity? I don't know. It depends on the situation. In some situations I might be doing his kids a favor. In other situations I might not. If what I was fighting for was good, yes. I don't know exactly. It depends on the situation. I have a scale of values that I try to base such decisions on. Sometimes decisions are clear cut, and there are other cases where you must choose the lesser of two evils. You might have to allow one man to die to save a hundred. You might have to go to war to attain peace. You might have to jump on the grenade yourself to save your comrades. None are easy decisions, but sacrifices are a part of life and sometimes the most stirring things to the soul.

I agree with your estimation of my position except the clause "Christian morality" because I believe right and wrong are qualities that all people can see and accept. I think God has made morality plain to all people. IOW, Christians do not hold a monopoly on morality, only spirituality in the sense of God's Spirit. I know this is for Contracycle, but I just wanted to say.I think this passage describes the perfect society -- how we are meant to live. But for this to happen, all people must be unified in one spirit. On a national scale that is not the case. Because we are not one in the same spirit and because we are all sinners and fail, we must have a separate authoritative national government. The society as described in Acts should act within the establishment of that national government, but you cannot use government to force everyone into that kind of society. Well, I think freedom is our natural right. We should be able to be who we are and do what we want so long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others to do the same. But we don't live in a perfect world, and authority tends to increase to make up for our own lack of wisdom and control. So freedom is our ideal, but authority must be respected as well.I think that parable about the employer giving all his workers one denari no matter how long they worked pretty much comes out in strong support of capitalism and free enterprise. But he also says, Render unto Ceasar's what is Ceasar's. The basic message is pursue freedom and respect authority.

Man, I'm really tired, but I'll try to answer everyone's posts in a semi-coherent manner. He allowed himself to be subjected to some of the worst possible physical torture before dying physically. The physical torture was symbolic, so that we can somewhat understand the mental/spiritual pain of being separated from God and judged by God for our sins. He gave his physical and (temporarily) his spiritual life as a substitute for us, so that we might know the depth of God's love for us, and have forgiveness in repentance. The gift: eternal life with God, and freedom from sin. Let's not go there... ...yeah... pretty much.

Heh... let's not go there either...
Sorry, I just don't have the time right now, and its a little off worldviews and more onto the specifics of Christian theology.