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Author Topic:   FASCINATING CORROBORATION OF ALL BIBLE PROPHECY
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 43 (117944)
06-23-2004 3:16 PM


I recently read a fascinating book by Grant Jeffrey which provides a defense of all Bible prophecy and part of the way it does this is by providing some very interesting information that is not widely known about Jewish fast/feast day/Holy days and the very significant good and difficult/hard events that occurred on them . For example, the books author states in one of his books: "As mentioned earlier the phenomenon of ....major historical disasters affecting one nation over thirty-five centuries happening on the same anniversary day is totally unprecedented in human history." (see: http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html ) The book is called Armeggeddon: Appointment with Destiny by Grant R. Jeffrey (see these sites for a review: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html and http://www.baptistfire.com/books/jeffrey.shtml ). It contains some information that I believe has only recently been reported in a broad way although many Jewish people are aware of this information already. I would also add that it appears it is not just the Ninth Day of Av and the 17th day of Tammuz in terms of Jewish feasts/fasts days which appears to exhibit this anniversary date phenonema (Read below for resources regarding these days)
PREFACE
The Jews have several major feasts/days of fast (mourning)/Holy Days: Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, 17th day of Tammuz (theme: fasting and mourning), 9th day of Av (theme: fasting and mourning), Passover, etc. There are four days of fasting on the Jewish calendar.
As you can see above some days are associated with difficulty/mourning. Other days are the opposite and are associated with rejoicing/days of blessing.
THE EVIDENCE I WISH TO DISCUSS
Recently I read some material which I believe strong corroborates the divine nature of Bible prophecy. It increases the "Wow factor" of Bible prophecy for myself in that it provides additional corroboration of the sovereignty of God and his foreknowledge of events.
Here is a review of the book that explains things in a little more depth:
"This book will challenge you with its unique discovery that virtually every major event in the history of Israel has occurred on the anniversary of the Feast of Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles, etc."
taken from: http://philologos.org/guide/books/jeffrey.grant.1.htm
Here is another site which explains things in a little more depth:
" Key Points : 1) Jeffrey has discovered that God has dealt with the Israelis according to very distinct time patterns. 2) He also discovered that God has caused many critically important national events to occur during Jewish High Holy Days, or during a High Holy Period. When Jeffrey demonstrates that God has continued this pattern during the time of the Dispersal of the Jews from their land, and after Israel has become a nation....
Significance of Book; Contribution Book Makes : 1) Jeffrey shows God's faithfulness and Mercy in the way in which He has continued to deal with Israel. When he demonstrates that God has continued to deal with Israel according to these ancient timing patterns, even during their 2,000 year Dispersal, you realize that he has just added to the weight of Biblical truth that God has continued to view the Jews as His Chosen People....2) Jeffrey shows an Omnipotent God that intervenes in world history on a regular basis to show His power to an unbelieving world; 3) This is a faith building book."
taken from: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html
ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY BY MYSELF
Now what is significant in the book is that a proponderence of these above alluded to events occured both in modern times and Biblical times and that it apprears as if most of these events were beyond the control of the Jews or they had very little control. For example, below is some commentary of the major things that happened of the Ninth day of AV:
NINTH DAY OF AV COMMENTARY
I did some research on this topic and I found some interesting websites that have been written by Christians and Jews on the Ninth day of AV (If the Jewish sites say anything contrary to Christianity I wish to say as a Christian I do not endorse these statements):
A website below makes the following important point regarding the Ninth day of AV:
"Note:
Grant R. Jeffrey wrote a book titled, Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible. His chapter, Israel’s Day of Tragedy — the Ninth Day of Av documents the many events that took place on this day. Here are a few points to consider from his book:
Grant organizes his chapter around a list of eight major events that took place historically on the Ninth of Ave. This fact alone makes this Jewish fast day significant. I quote him, "As mentioned earlier the phenomenon of eight major historical disasters affecting one nation over thirty-five centuries happening on the same anniversary day is totally unprecedented in human history." (p. 130)
He found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history.
He attributes it to God's foreknowledge and sovereignty. He runs statistics on the odds that it could have happened by chance alone. It comes out to 1 chance in 863 Zillion. That is six groups of triple figures, or 863,078,009,300,000,000. It's calculated by 1 (chance) x 365 (days in a year) x 365 x 365 (etc.)--you multiply 365 times itself 8 times."
taken from: http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html
Some Ninth day of AV websites which list some of the events:
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http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html
http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/tishabav/tishabav.html (Jewish site)
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_...habav_taboo.htm (Jewish site)
Here is some commentary of the Seventeenth day of Tammuz
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0701/wein070601.asp (Jewish site)
Here is some commentary on some events that have occurred on the Seventeenth day of Tammuz:
Page not found – Heritage House
By the way, the above website says:
"THIS coming Sunday marks the fast day of the Seventeenth of Tammuz, one of the four (Yom Kippur is not counted as a day of fasting but rather as a day of "rest") biblical fast days on the Jewish calendar."
Some brief but more BROAD commentary on Jewish feasts and events that happened on them:
The Feasts of Israel | The Believers Web
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=447 (Jewish site)
http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter33.htm
GENERAL COMMENTARY REGARDING THE JEWISH FEASTS
404
ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY RE: JEFFREY'S BOOK
I think the key phrase above regarding Grant is: "He found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history." First of all I wish to say that I do not consider Jeffrey Grant to be reliable in all his conclusions which he has made over the years. In my estimation Jeffrey Grant has some works that are badly reasoned and yet he does some very good material too (Again, see these reviews of Grant Jeffrey's work which I have cited: (see these sites for a review: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html and http://www.baptistfire.com/books/jeffrey.shtml ). In my first post, I gave Jeffrey Grant'a probability statement for the set of 8 events on the ninth day of AV. I can see some changes I would make in regards to his probablity statements. And although I studied and understand higher statistical reasoning and love some of the methodologies that many historians use to weigh evidence, I am not a professional statician or historian by any means. However, I think if you investigate the history of those 8 events plus look at the other events that happened on other major Jewish days (please read Grant Jeffreys book plus all the links I gave in the first post regarding the other Jewish days) you will come to the conclusion that it is extremely improbable to the nth degree that they merely occured by chance. If you investigate this further the next question is how diligent was Jeffrey Grant because he "found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history." He claimed he was very diligent in his book but given some of his past performances I am not so sure of his effort. But at the same time I find it hard to believe that any nation could have such a comparable set of "coincidences"! At the same time I would encourage you to read Grant's book and to do further study. I certainly am looking into this further in terms of the history but so far the history part looks promising and I think if you look at the websites I offer this would also help if you did not do so already.
So I think the "coincidences" especially show extraordinary divine intervention and sovereignty in the history of Israel which of course the Hebrew prophets claimed also in regards to the state of Israel. In short,there is a match/corroboration. Also, I believe I may have found instances where the prophecies overlap the instances where the Jewish fast days overlapped the days where there were historical calamaties to the Jews that were prophesied (For example, the Babylonian captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I am currently investigation the historicity of some of these events falling on the Ninth day of AV or the 17th day of Tammuz. But it appears for example as if Flavius Josephus may have recorded that the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. occured on the Ninth Day of AV. In this particular instance Mr. Jeffrey did not give specificity in confirming the particular historical sources he may have used although it appears by his mentioning of Josephus's account that he may have used Josephus.
Next, in the above mentioned book Mr. Jeffrey speaks on the subject of death rates/ birth control. I wish to distance myself from his remarks on birth control because I am not in favor of the many methods of used for birth control. To Mr. Jeffries credit he in no way endorsed abortion. PLEASE REFRAIN MAKING THIS STRING INTO A REFERENDUM ON ABORTION. IF YOU WISH TO START A SEPARATE STRING ON THIS TOPIC FEEL FREE TO DO SO, HOWEVER.
IMPORTANT ADDENDUM
Also, summer is a busy time for me due to my work. I also have some very initial symptoms of carpal tunnel (I am confident it will go away though if I in fact have it). I also wish to give people the chance to read the above book so they could have time to read the cummulative case that Mr. Jeffrey presents and thereby be able to provided well informed and intelligent commentary. With this in mind, I may not come back to this string in September or October (perhaps the carpal tunnel will be over quickly. I have read that very mild carpal tunnel can go away in one to three weeks). The book is about 300 pages long. I also wish to add that I have very little desire to comment on posts where people make comments without doing their due diligence (In all likelihood, you will have to read the book before providing any significant commentary but I could be wrong. I did provide quite a bit of resources above but it does not compare to reading Mr. Jeffrey's book which provides more in depth commentary on the feasts/fasts etc plus Mr. Jeffrey's book gives other evidence to support Bible prophecy).
Sincerely,
Ken

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 43 (138895)
09-01-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
06-23-2004 6:57 PM


TO: Paulk and Willowtree
TO: Paulk
You Paulk wrote:
quote:
I did have a little look at one of the sites giving dates and checked out one of the claims. Since the claim was based in the Bible it certainly should have checked out.
The site I looked at was:
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(3) The First Temple, Solomon's Temple, was destroyed in 586-587 B.C. on the ninth of Av. The Babylonians fought their way into the Temple on Av 7, and ate and caroused there until Av 9, and at evening, set the Temple on fire. It burned all night and through the next day, Av 10. See Jeremiah 52:12-13.
MY REPLY
Did you do an historical investigation or refer to the book written by Mr. Grant that I suggested in order to find out if any credible historical sources from Jerusalem gave some testimony regarding something very significant which alledgedly happened to the Temple on the Ninth day of Av? If you did not I will give you the opportunity to do so.
You Paulk then said:
quote:
What Jeremiah 52:12-13 says is
12 Now on the tenth day of the fifth month, which was the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the captain of the bodyguard, who was in the service of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.
13 He burned the house of the LORD, the king's house and all the houses of Jerusalem; even every large house he burned with fire.
So all it says is that the man responsible for the burning ARRIVED on the 10th of Av. No fight, no carousing and the burning could not have started until the 10th of Av at the earliest.
You would think that the writer would actually check what the Bible says. Or did he just assume that nobody else would check ?
And there are other dates that could be taken as significant.
The Babylonian army arrives on the tenth day of the tenth month (52:4)
The people run out of food on the nineth day of the fourth month, leading to the fall of Jerusalem. (52:6-7)
Some time after that Zedekiah is caught, his sons killed before his eyes, he is blinded and sent to Babylon (52:9-11)
MY REPLY
To what degree did you do a careful process of Biblical exegesis?
I cite the following as a guide:
quote:
The rules of exegesis:
"Gordon D. Fee, in his New Testament Exegesis, p 27, states simply, Exegesisanswers the question, What did the biblical author mean? It has to do both with what he said (the content itself) and why he said it at any given point (the literary context). Furthermore, exegesis is primarily concerned with intentionality: What did the author intend his original readers to understand?
Before we can determine what a given text might mean for us today, we must establish what it meant for its original audience.
This is the process of exegesis. In this article, we will lay out the fundamental rules, of which there are eight. In future articles, we will elaborate on each one from a nuts & bolts perspective. The rules listed are taken directly from Prof. Fee’s excellent book (p. 32), mentioned in the paragraph above.
Rule No. 1: Survey the historical context in general.
Rule No. 2: Confirm the limits of the passage.
Rule No. 3: Become thoroughly acquainted with your paragraph or pericope
Rule No. 4: Analyze sentence structures and syntactical relationships.
Rule No. 5: Establish the text.
Rule No. 6: Analyze the grammar.
Rule No. 7: Analyze significant words.
Rule No. 8: Research the historical-cultural background."
taken from: Godward.org
You Paulk then wrote:
quote:
I have now checked the following claim:
9) In 1914, on Av 9, World War I was declared, as Russia mobilized for war and launched bitter persecutions against Jews in Russia, which led many Jews to emigrate to the Holy Land to escape.
Germany's Declaration of War on Russia was the day before - the 8th - August 1 1914. Russia's mobilisation was earlier - July 29. But of course for the start of WW I there is the Assassination of the Archduke (June 28), Austria-Hungary's Declaration of War on Serbia (July 28) and Austria-Hungary was at war with Russia by August 6.
(http://collections.ic.gc.ca/turner/tline1.html)
So they are wrong on two easily checked claims.
MY REPLY
Did you use the Jewish lunar calendar to determine whether the Ninth day of AV fell on the day Germany declared war on Russia for World War I and if you did what source did you use and how?
I ask this because it appears as if at least 5 Jewish sites (I thought getting more would be overkill), a messianic Jewish site, and a man who wrote two books on the Ninth Day of Av (Mr. Grant) declares that in regards to WWI Germany declared war on Russia on the Ninth Day of AV. I am not a big believer in appeals to authority or the ad populum logical fallacy but I cannot say I take your word over these 7 sources at this time.
Here are the 5 Jewish sites:
http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/tishabav/tishabav.html
Page not found - aish.com
http://www.jewishsf.com/...126/format/html/displaystory.html
http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/learning/months/av.shtml
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/980731/yosi.shtml
Messianic Jewish site:
Israelsharvest.com
TO: Willowtree
I have not examined the material you cited in this string as of yet. Thank you for the information though.
Sincerely,
Ken

This message is a reply to:
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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 43 (138985)
09-01-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by kendemyer
09-01-2004 5:27 PM


Re: TO: Paulk and Willowtree, addendum
Addendum
I wish to state that Mr. Grant does not explicitly endorse birth control in his book although he mentions it.
Sincerely,
Ken

This message is a reply to:
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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 43 (139231)
09-02-2004 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
09-02-2004 9:03 AM


Re: TO: Paulk and Willowtree
TO: Paulk
re: Solomon's
Against the protest of some on this board I gave the professed skeptics a chance to due their due diligence in order to do high quality Biblical exegesis and/or commentary regarding my initial post. Given your above response it seems as if you did little historical research and thus did poor Biblical exegesis to see if anything very significant occured on the Ninth day of Av in regards to the destruction of Solomon's temple. Since you seem somewhat obstinate I will provide a hint to you. Please look at what the Jerusalem Talmud says about this matter. A reference to this is in Mr. Grants book.
I also say that you did not examine the Biblical text itself very carefully and I saw two significant matters you never addressed. Please use a cross reference Bible. Also, please look at the Hebrew. You mistakes in regards to the Biblical text itself are glaring. But I will give you time to redeem yourself in this matter too.
re: WWI and Ninth day of AV
Lastly, I provided multiple sources regarding the Ninth Day of Av and WWI starting from multiple sources many of whom could reasonable be expected to competently understand the Jewish calendar. You merely have the assertion that somewhere on the internet there is a source which agrees with you. I suspect there are not many evcforum readers who are searching for that website! LOL
TO: ALL
Hopefully, Paulk will improve upon his Bible exegesis. I will certainly give him a chance to redeem himself should he wish to take my offer. If he does not when sufficient time allows I will provide some Bible exegesis for readers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2004 9:03 AM PaulK has replied

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 43 (139256)
09-02-2004 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-23-2004 4:35 PM


to: jar
TO: Jar
You wrote:
quote:
Sorry, no real evidence. You can find similar coincidences for almost any date. Just a quick look at July the 4th for the US turned up the following.
July 4.
Declaration of Independence.
John Adams Dies.
Thomas Jefferson Dies.
Pathfinder lands on Mars.
Richard Petty wins 200th .
Vicksburg surrenders.
Leaves of Grass published.
CIA informed of Vietnam Coup Plot.
It may well be an interesting book to some but it is certainly not corroboration of anything.
Thanks for posting it though. Too bad there is nothing there.
Jar, here are some questions:
Was the pathfinder landing Mars a earth shattering event for the USA?
Was Richard Petty wining a race a earth shattering event for the USA?
Was the Leaves of Grass being published a earth shattering event for the USA?
Was John Adams Dying a earth shattering event for the USA?
Was Thomas Jefferson dying a earth shattering event for the USA?
Was Vicksburg surrendering a major event for the USA or would Gettysburg be a better example?
Was the CIA being informed of Vietnam Coup Plot a super significant event or would the Tet offensive in this war much more significant? Also, would WWI or WWII perhaps be more significant wars for America?
In summary, I see the events on the Jewish major holy days and the very major events that occured on them as being far more significant than what you provided above.

This message is a reply to:
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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 43 (139272)
09-02-2004 6:19 PM


to Jar
You wrote:
quote:
You can find similar coincidences for almost any date.
My reply:
Then do it!

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 43 (139273)
09-02-2004 6:20 PM


to Jar
You wrote:
quote:
You can find similar coincidences for almost any date.
My reply:
Then demonstrate this! You have not!

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 43 (139660)
09-03-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
09-03-2004 5:22 AM


Re: TO: Paulk and Willowtree
to: Paulk
You Bible exegesis not only missed the obvious but lacked historical research.
Here is an excerpt from a website where some of the threads participants did real research (I am not talking about myself but to some of the people I responded to).
[quote] 2 Kings 25:8-9 claims that the First Temple was destroyed on the 7th of Av:
"In the fifth month [Av], on the 7th day of the month ... Nebuzaradan, the captain of the bodyguard, a servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. He burned the house of Yhwh ... "
Jer. 52:12-14 claims that the First Temple was destroyed on the 10th of Av:
"In the fifth month [Av], on the 10th day of the month ... Nebuzaradan, the captain of the bodyguard who served the king of Babylon, entered Jerusalem. He burned the house of Yhwh ... "
MY REPLY
Again I do not have my personal copy of Strong's with me. However, this time I highlighted the key word above.
If memory serves, and it may not, the word translated "came" can mean "left for" also. So it could be that he left on the 7th and arrived on the 10th. I would also have the issue of whether there are variants and how many for the "7th" and "1Oth" and your "month" issue.
Last, I would appreciate any scholarly sources you could give me regarding the commentary position you are taking. I would be especially interested in rabbinical commentaries since they would be more familar with the Jerusalem Talmud which says some soldiers started a fire on the 9th according to Grant. Grant speculates a fire started on the 9th and on the 10th the official decided to let it keep burning.
I have seen some artist renditions of the Temple and some of them make it appear like it was a huge complex. I do not know how viable some of those artist renditions are. The Bible if I am not mistaken makes it appear as if Solomon's temple took over 7 years to complete. So perhaps a fire was started in one part of the complex and the official decided to accelerate the process by starting multiple fires. Another possibility is that a fire was started on the 9th by some drunken soldiers and it burned itself out. Then on the 10th the official started the fire again. I am not a ancient Jewish fire marshall and have no idea how combustible the temple complex would have been.
TO: ALL
I will write about this further since Paulk seems obstinate in terms of doing additional research or careful Bible exegesis.

This message is a reply to:
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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 43 (139667)
09-03-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 4:22 PM


Re: TO: Paulk and Willowtree
to: ALL
A variant refers to how many of the copies disagree with each other. By the way, to my knowledge their is no large ancient work with has less textual corruption than the Old Testament. The New Testament is absolutely remarkable.
I cite:
quote:
OLD TESTAMENT DOCUMENT PREPARATION: HEBREW COPIES
The Massorites were absolutely devoted about keeping the Old Testament free of variants in the text (they had rigorous methodologies for keeping the text as free as variants as humanly possible). Here is a brief overview of the Massorites and the text they produced from another website:
"The MASORETES (Hebrew Masorah, meaning "to deliver something
in to the hands of another") safeguarded the text from about A.D.
500 to A.D. 916. These dedicated scholars based in Tiberias
produced the Masoretic texts used today; they are the basis for
our English OT of 1611. "The Masorah is called 'a fence to the
scriptures' because it locked all words and letters in their
places. It records the number of times the several letters occur
in the Bible; the number of words and the middle word; the number
of verses and the middle verse, etc., for the set purpose of
preventing the loss or misplacement of a single letter or word"
(Bullinger, Companion Bible, Appendix 30).
Designating the middle letter of the Pentateuch and the
middle letter and verse of each book as well as the entire OT was
not enough for these technicians. Phrases were counted,
enumerated, distinguished. "House of Israel" was computed
separately from "sons of Israel" and the number of times each
occurred was well noted. The expression "sins of Jeroboam" is
noted separately from "the sins of Jeroboam, the son of Nebat."
thus the Jewish zeal for God was turned to good use (Romans
10:2)."
(taken from: http://www.keithhunt.com/Bible6.html )
Another website provides the following information:
quote:
"Let JOSEPHUS, a Jewish historian of the first century, answer:
' From Artaxerxes (Malachi's time) until our time everything
has been recorded but has not been deemed worthy of like credit
with what has preceded, because the exact succession of prophets
ceased. But what faith we have placed in our own writings is
evident by our conduct; FOR though so long a time has now passed,
NO ONE HAS DARED TO ADD ANYTHING TO THEM, OR ALTER ANYTHING IN
THEM' (Contra Apion, Whiston's Josephus, p.609).
Often overlooked is that the law, prophets, and writings,
which were accepted by Jesus (Luke 24:44), formed the BASIS FOR
THE LEGAL PRACTICES of the Jewish nation. These religious
writings had NATIONAL IMPACT equal to Britain's Magna Carta...or
America's Plymouth Rock Covenant and Declaration of
Independence....Animosity was, paradoxically, a powerful force in
PRESERVING the unimpeachability of Scripture. The appeal to the
text was the common arbiter in theological debate (Matt.19:7).
The Scriptures were known at the grass-roots level as well (Luke
4:16-20). UNOFFICIAL DELETIONS, INSERTIONS OR CORRUPTIONS would
have triggered an OUTCRY among the faithful in a nation ZEALOUS
FOR THE LAW (Acts 22:3).
TAMPER with the OFFICIAL Hebrew text? One may as well
consider EDITING the Declaration of Independence, DELETING a
sentence in a NEW copy of the Gettysburg Address......VITAL
literary production of NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE are too WELL KNOWN
to be PRIVATELY tampered with among the faithful. There were, of
course, enemies who tried to do so - and still do!
Today thousands of people have committed the TEN
COMMANDMENTS TO MEMORY. Imagine the PROTEST if a NEW Bible
translation INSERTED AN EXTRA commandment!.......
The Thread of Conveyance
Scripture itself speaks of a systematic, ORGANIZED
PRESERVATION of the law, prophets and writings.
Moses entrusted the law to the Levites guarding the ark,
center-piece of Israel's religion (Deut.31:24-26). Joshua 1:8
comments upon "this book of the law" that Moses' successor read
to the entire nation (Josh.8:32-35).
Literate, proficient scholars functioned even through the
chaotic Judges period (Judg.5:14, 1 Sam.1:3,9). Under Samuel
and David and Solomon, during Israel's Golden Age, inspired
writers laid the basis for the historical narratives in Samuel,
Kings and Chronicles. David revered the sacred writings
(Ps.119:97), and he and Solomon contributed and collected many
psalms and proverbs."
(see this page for details: http://www.keithhunt.com/Bible6.html )
Another website states:
Another website states the following:
quote:
"Of the passages in which textual variants occur, the vast majority involve minor differences in spelling or grammar which leave the meaning of the texts unaffected. Those passages in which potentially significant variations do occur are usually listed in footnotes in the better English translations and editions of the Bible, so any reader can know exactly where they appear. And it is fair to conclude that no point of Christian doctrine relies solely on disputed textual variants."
see this webpage for details: Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
THE FOLLOWING SOURCE PROVIDES INFORMATION REGARDING NEW TESTAMENT TEXT
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/historical.htm
SUMMARY
Copyist errors are rare but they do happen. I would need to look into the Solomon Bible verses further.

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 43 (139679)
09-03-2004 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
09-03-2004 4:42 PM


Re: TO: Paulk and Willowtree
to: jar
Were there good reasons for some books being left out? Please open a new string. This is off topic.

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 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-03-2004 4:42 PM jar has not replied

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 43 (139769)
09-03-2004 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
09-03-2004 8:47 PM


to: phatboy
I already addressed that Mr. Grant produced poor material.
I believe you are implying a logical fallacy which is:
quote:
Description of Composition
The fallacy of Composition is committed when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference. There are actually two types of this fallacy, both of which are known by the same name (because of the high degree of similarity).
The first type of fallacy of Composition arises when a person reasons from the characteristics of individual members of a class or group to a conclusion regarding the characteristics of the entire class or group (taken as a whole). More formally, the "reasoning" would look something like this.
Individual F things have characteristics A, B, C, etc.
Therefore, the (whole) class of F things has characteristics A, B, C, etc.
This line of reasoning is fallacious because the mere fact that individuals have certain characteristics does not, in itself, guarantee that the class (taken as a whole) has those characteristics.
It is important to note that drawing an inference about the characteristics of a class based on the characteristics of its individual members is not always fallacious. In some cases, sufficient justification can be provided to warrant the conclusion. For example, it is true that an individual rich person has more wealth than an individual poor person. In some nations (such as the US) it is true that the class of wealthy people has more wealth as a whole than does the class of poor people. In this case, the evidence used would warrant the inference and the fallacy of Composition would not be committed.
The second type of fallacy of Composition is committed when it is concluded that what is true of the parts of a whole must be true of the whole without there being adequate justification for the claim. More formally, the line of "reasoning" would be as follows:
The parts of the whole X have characteristics A, B, C, etc.
Therefore the whole X must have characteristics A, B, C.
That this sort of reasoning is fallacious because it cannot be inferred that simply because the parts of a complex whole have (or lack) certain properties that the whole that they are parts of has those properties. This is especially clear in math: The numbers 1 and 3 are both odd. 1 and 3 are parts of 4. Therefore, the number 4 is odd.
It must be noted that reasoning from the properties of the parts to the properties of the whole is not always fallacious. If there is justification for the inference from parts to whole, then the reasoning is not fallacious. For example, if every part of the human body is made of matter, then it would not be an error in reasoning to conclude that the whole human body is made of matter. Similiarly, if every part of a structure is made of brick, there is no fallacy comitted when one concludes that the whole structure is made of brick.
In short, just because one or more of Grant's books is bad does not mean they are all bad.
For example, I could take your worst words and via these worse words I can say anthing you say is pointless. This of course, would not be fair.

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 Message 31 by kendemyer, posted 09-03-2004 9:16 PM kendemyer has not replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 43 (139771)
09-03-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by kendemyer
09-03-2004 9:15 PM


Re: to: phatboy
The above quote was taken from: Page not found - Nizkor

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 Message 32 by Phat, posted 09-05-2004 5:07 AM kendemyer has replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 43 (140528)
09-06-2004 10:21 PM


to: all
When I return I will have my Strong's concordance for the Hebrew and the Mr. Grant book with me plus I may have had some additional time to do some internet research. I also have somewhat of a good working relationship as far as Bible research with a Rabbi but he may be too busy to offer help in this matter and I do not want to impose. I looked at the Grant book yesterday and it appers to say the Jerusalem Talmud says some drunken soldiers started a fire in Solomon's Temple on the 9th day of Av and it continued to burn of the 10th day of Av. So did the fire burn out on the 10th and was restarted on the 10th by the official mentioned in the Bible? Did the official make the decision to let the fire continue? I am guessing the historical records may not provide enough details. I am also not enough of a Jewish historian to know the details on how the Talmud was put together.

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kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 43 (140682)
09-07-2004 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by kendemyer
09-06-2004 10:21 PM


Re: to: all
clarification:
When I wrote:
"I am also not enough of a Jewish historian to know the details on how the Talmud was put together" I did not mean to imply I am a historian.
Sincerely,
Ken

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 Message 35 by kendemyer, posted 09-06-2004 10:21 PM kendemyer has not replied

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 43 (141800)
09-12-2004 3:29 PM


to: ALL
In another thread I posted that my internet debating has ended for a long time do to a change of priorities and interest. A copy of Strong's concordance is easy to obtain or other sources like Thayer's is also available. Plus Grant's book is widely available. I do not think I left that much of a loose end here at this time. I think minimal extra due diligence is required.
Sincerely,
Ken

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