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Author | Topic: FASCINATING CORROBORATION OF ALL BIBLE PROPHECY | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kendemyer Inactive Member |
I recently read a fascinating book by Grant Jeffrey which provides a defense of all Bible prophecy and part of the way it does this is by providing some very interesting information that is not widely known about Jewish fast/feast day/Holy days and the very significant good and difficult/hard events that occurred on them . For example, the books author states in one of his books: "As mentioned earlier the phenomenon of ....major historical disasters affecting one nation over thirty-five centuries happening on the same anniversary day is totally unprecedented in human history." (see: http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html ) The book is called Armeggeddon: Appointment with Destiny by Grant R. Jeffrey (see these sites for a review: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html and http://www.baptistfire.com/books/jeffrey.shtml ). It contains some information that I believe has only recently been reported in a broad way although many Jewish people are aware of this information already. I would also add that it appears it is not just the Ninth Day of Av and the 17th day of Tammuz in terms of Jewish feasts/fasts days which appears to exhibit this anniversary date phenonema (Read below for resources regarding these days)
PREFACE The Jews have several major feasts/days of fast (mourning)/Holy Days: Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, 17th day of Tammuz (theme: fasting and mourning), 9th day of Av (theme: fasting and mourning), Passover, etc. There are four days of fasting on the Jewish calendar. As you can see above some days are associated with difficulty/mourning. Other days are the opposite and are associated with rejoicing/days of blessing. THE EVIDENCE I WISH TO DISCUSS Recently I read some material which I believe strong corroborates the divine nature of Bible prophecy. It increases the "Wow factor" of Bible prophecy for myself in that it provides additional corroboration of the sovereignty of God and his foreknowledge of events. Here is a review of the book that explains things in a little more depth: "This book will challenge you with its unique discovery that virtually every major event in the history of Israel has occurred on the anniversary of the Feast of Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles, etc." taken from: http://philologos.org/guide/books/jeffrey.grant.1.htm Here is another site which explains things in a little more depth: " Key Points : 1) Jeffrey has discovered that God has dealt with the Israelis according to very distinct time patterns. 2) He also discovered that God has caused many critically important national events to occur during Jewish High Holy Days, or during a High Holy Period. When Jeffrey demonstrates that God has continued this pattern during the time of the Dispersal of the Jews from their land, and after Israel has become a nation.... Significance of Book; Contribution Book Makes : 1) Jeffrey shows God's faithfulness and Mercy in the way in which He has continued to deal with Israel. When he demonstrates that God has continued to deal with Israel according to these ancient timing patterns, even during their 2,000 year Dispersal, you realize that he has just added to the weight of Biblical truth that God has continued to view the Jews as His Chosen People....2) Jeffrey shows an Omnipotent God that intervenes in world history on a regular basis to show His power to an unbelieving world; 3) This is a faith building book." taken from: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY BY MYSELF Now what is significant in the book is that a proponderence of these above alluded to events occured both in modern times and Biblical times and that it apprears as if most of these events were beyond the control of the Jews or they had very little control. For example, below is some commentary of the major things that happened of the Ninth day of AV: NINTH DAY OF AV COMMENTARY I did some research on this topic and I found some interesting websites that have been written by Christians and Jews on the Ninth day of AV (If the Jewish sites say anything contrary to Christianity I wish to say as a Christian I do not endorse these statements): A website below makes the following important point regarding the Ninth day of AV: "Note: Grant R. Jeffrey wrote a book titled, Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible. His chapter, Israel’s Day of Tragedy — the Ninth Day of Av documents the many events that took place on this day. Here are a few points to consider from his book: Grant organizes his chapter around a list of eight major events that took place historically on the Ninth of Ave. This fact alone makes this Jewish fast day significant. I quote him, "As mentioned earlier the phenomenon of eight major historical disasters affecting one nation over thirty-five centuries happening on the same anniversary day is totally unprecedented in human history." (p. 130) He found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history. He attributes it to God's foreknowledge and sovereignty. He runs statistics on the odds that it could have happened by chance alone. It comes out to 1 chance in 863 Zillion. That is six groups of triple figures, or 863,078,009,300,000,000. It's calculated by 1 (chance) x 365 (days in a year) x 365 x 365 (etc.)--you multiply 365 times itself 8 times." taken from: http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html Some Ninth day of AV websites which list some of the events: Best Online Casinos Canada 2022 | Real Money Canadian Gambling http://www.gnfi.org/html/ninth_of_av.html http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/tishabav/tishabav.html (Jewish site) http://judaism.about.com/library/3_...habav_taboo.htm (Jewish site) Here is some commentary of the Seventeenth day of Tammuz http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0701/wein070601.asp (Jewish site) Here is some commentary on some events that have occurred on the Seventeenth day of Tammuz: Page not found – Heritage House By the way, the above website says: "THIS coming Sunday marks the fast day of the Seventeenth of Tammuz, one of the four (Yom Kippur is not counted as a day of fasting but rather as a day of "rest") biblical fast days on the Jewish calendar." Some brief but more BROAD commentary on Jewish feasts and events that happened on them: The Feasts of Israel | The Believers Web http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=447 (Jewish site) http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter33.htm GENERAL COMMENTARY REGARDING THE JEWISH FEASTS 404 ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY RE: JEFFREY'S BOOK I think the key phrase above regarding Grant is: "He found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history." First of all I wish to say that I do not consider Jeffrey Grant to be reliable in all his conclusions which he has made over the years. In my estimation Jeffrey Grant has some works that are badly reasoned and yet he does some very good material too (Again, see these reviews of Grant Jeffrey's work which I have cited: (see these sites for a review: http://www.cuttingedge.org/review/rv128.html and http://www.baptistfire.com/books/jeffrey.shtml ). In my first post, I gave Jeffrey Grant'a probability statement for the set of 8 events on the ninth day of AV. I can see some changes I would make in regards to his probablity statements. And although I studied and understand higher statistical reasoning and love some of the methodologies that many historians use to weigh evidence, I am not a professional statician or historian by any means. However, I think if you investigate the history of those 8 events plus look at the other events that happened on other major Jewish days (please read Grant Jeffreys book plus all the links I gave in the first post regarding the other Jewish days) you will come to the conclusion that it is extremely improbable to the nth degree that they merely occured by chance. If you investigate this further the next question is how diligent was Jeffrey Grant because he "found no comparable set of historical coincidences in any other nation's history." He claimed he was very diligent in his book but given some of his past performances I am not so sure of his effort. But at the same time I find it hard to believe that any nation could have such a comparable set of "coincidences"! At the same time I would encourage you to read Grant's book and to do further study. I certainly am looking into this further in terms of the history but so far the history part looks promising and I think if you look at the websites I offer this would also help if you did not do so already. So I think the "coincidences" especially show extraordinary divine intervention and sovereignty in the history of Israel which of course the Hebrew prophets claimed also in regards to the state of Israel. In short,there is a match/corroboration. Also, I believe I may have found instances where the prophecies overlap the instances where the Jewish fast days overlapped the days where there were historical calamaties to the Jews that were prophesied (For example, the Babylonian captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I am currently investigation the historicity of some of these events falling on the Ninth day of AV or the 17th day of Tammuz. But it appears for example as if Flavius Josephus may have recorded that the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. occured on the Ninth Day of AV. In this particular instance Mr. Jeffrey did not give specificity in confirming the particular historical sources he may have used although it appears by his mentioning of Josephus's account that he may have used Josephus. Next, in the above mentioned book Mr. Jeffrey speaks on the subject of death rates/ birth control. I wish to distance myself from his remarks on birth control because I am not in favor of the many methods of used for birth control. To Mr. Jeffries credit he in no way endorsed abortion. PLEASE REFRAIN MAKING THIS STRING INTO A REFERENDUM ON ABORTION. IF YOU WISH TO START A SEPARATE STRING ON THIS TOPIC FEEL FREE TO DO SO, HOWEVER. IMPORTANT ADDENDUM Also, summer is a busy time for me due to my work. I also have some very initial symptoms of carpal tunnel (I am confident it will go away though if I in fact have it). I also wish to give people the chance to read the above book so they could have time to read the cummulative case that Mr. Jeffrey presents and thereby be able to provided well informed and intelligent commentary. With this in mind, I may not come back to this string in September or October (perhaps the carpal tunnel will be over quickly. I have read that very mild carpal tunnel can go away in one to three weeks). The book is about 300 pages long. I also wish to add that I have very little desire to comment on posts where people make comments without doing their due diligence (In all likelihood, you will have to read the book before providing any significant commentary but I could be wrong. I did provide quite a bit of resources above but it does not compare to reading Mr. Jeffrey's book which provides more in depth commentary on the feasts/fasts etc plus Mr. Jeffrey's book gives other evidence to support Bible prophecy). Sincerely, Ken
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
TO: Paulk
You Paulk wrote:
quote: MY REPLY Did you do an historical investigation or refer to the book written by Mr. Grant that I suggested in order to find out if any credible historical sources from Jerusalem gave some testimony regarding something very significant which alledgedly happened to the Temple on the Ninth day of Av? If you did not I will give you the opportunity to do so. You Paulk then said:
quote: MY REPLY To what degree did you do a careful process of Biblical exegesis? I cite the following as a guide:
quote: You Paulk then wrote:
quote: MY REPLY Did you use the Jewish lunar calendar to determine whether the Ninth day of AV fell on the day Germany declared war on Russia for World War I and if you did what source did you use and how? I ask this because it appears as if at least 5 Jewish sites (I thought getting more would be overkill), a messianic Jewish site, and a man who wrote two books on the Ninth Day of Av (Mr. Grant) declares that in regards to WWI Germany declared war on Russia on the Ninth Day of AV. I am not a big believer in appeals to authority or the ad populum logical fallacy but I cannot say I take your word over these 7 sources at this time. Here are the 5 Jewish sites: http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/tishabav/tishabav.html Page not found - aish.com http://www.jewishsf.com/...126/format/html/displaystory.html http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/learning/months/av.shtml http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/980731/yosi.shtml Messianic Jewish site: Israelsharvest.com TO: Willowtree I have not examined the material you cited in this string as of yet. Thank you for the information though. Sincerely, Ken
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
Addendum
I wish to state that Mr. Grant does not explicitly endorse birth control in his book although he mentions it. Sincerely, Ken
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
TO: Paulk
re: Solomon's Against the protest of some on this board I gave the professed skeptics a chance to due their due diligence in order to do high quality Biblical exegesis and/or commentary regarding my initial post. Given your above response it seems as if you did little historical research and thus did poor Biblical exegesis to see if anything very significant occured on the Ninth day of Av in regards to the destruction of Solomon's temple. Since you seem somewhat obstinate I will provide a hint to you. Please look at what the Jerusalem Talmud says about this matter. A reference to this is in Mr. Grants book. I also say that you did not examine the Biblical text itself very carefully and I saw two significant matters you never addressed. Please use a cross reference Bible. Also, please look at the Hebrew. You mistakes in regards to the Biblical text itself are glaring. But I will give you time to redeem yourself in this matter too. re: WWI and Ninth day of AV Lastly, I provided multiple sources regarding the Ninth Day of Av and WWI starting from multiple sources many of whom could reasonable be expected to competently understand the Jewish calendar. You merely have the assertion that somewhere on the internet there is a source which agrees with you. I suspect there are not many evcforum readers who are searching for that website! LOL TO: ALL Hopefully, Paulk will improve upon his Bible exegesis. I will certainly give him a chance to redeem himself should he wish to take my offer. If he does not when sufficient time allows I will provide some Bible exegesis for readers.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
TO: Jar
You wrote:
quote: Jar, here are some questions: Was the pathfinder landing Mars a earth shattering event for the USA? Was Richard Petty wining a race a earth shattering event for the USA? Was the Leaves of Grass being published a earth shattering event for the USA? Was John Adams Dying a earth shattering event for the USA? Was Thomas Jefferson dying a earth shattering event for the USA? Was Vicksburg surrendering a major event for the USA or would Gettysburg be a better example? Was the CIA being informed of Vietnam Coup Plot a super significant event or would the Tet offensive in this war much more significant? Also, would WWI or WWII perhaps be more significant wars for America? In summary, I see the events on the Jewish major holy days and the very major events that occured on them as being far more significant than what you provided above.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
You wrote:
quote: My reply: Then do it!
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
You wrote:
quote: My reply: Then demonstrate this! You have not!
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
to: Paulk
You Bible exegesis not only missed the obvious but lacked historical research. Here is an excerpt from a website where some of the threads participants did real research (I am not talking about myself but to some of the people I responded to).
[quote] 2 Kings 25:8-9 claims that the First Temple was destroyed on the 7th of Av: "In the fifth month [Av], on the 7th day of the month ... Nebuzaradan, the captain of the bodyguard, a servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. He burned the house of Yhwh ... " Jer. 52:12-14 claims that the First Temple was destroyed on the 10th of Av: "In the fifth month [Av], on the 10th day of the month ... Nebuzaradan, the captain of the bodyguard who served the king of Babylon, entered Jerusalem. He burned the house of Yhwh ... " MY REPLY Again I do not have my personal copy of Strong's with me. However, this time I highlighted the key word above. If memory serves, and it may not, the word translated "came" can mean "left for" also. So it could be that he left on the 7th and arrived on the 10th. I would also have the issue of whether there are variants and how many for the "7th" and "1Oth" and your "month" issue. Last, I would appreciate any scholarly sources you could give me regarding the commentary position you are taking. I would be especially interested in rabbinical commentaries since they would be more familar with the Jerusalem Talmud which says some soldiers started a fire on the 9th according to Grant. Grant speculates a fire started on the 9th and on the 10th the official decided to let it keep burning. I have seen some artist renditions of the Temple and some of them make it appear like it was a huge complex. I do not know how viable some of those artist renditions are. The Bible if I am not mistaken makes it appear as if Solomon's temple took over 7 years to complete. So perhaps a fire was started in one part of the complex and the official decided to accelerate the process by starting multiple fires. Another possibility is that a fire was started on the 9th by some drunken soldiers and it burned itself out. Then on the 10th the official started the fire again. I am not a ancient Jewish fire marshall and have no idea how combustible the temple complex would have been. TO: ALL I will write about this further since Paulk seems obstinate in terms of doing additional research or careful Bible exegesis.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
to: ALL
A variant refers to how many of the copies disagree with each other. By the way, to my knowledge their is no large ancient work with has less textual corruption than the Old Testament. The New Testament is absolutely remarkable. I cite:
quote: Another website provides the following information:
quote: Another website states: Another website states the following:
quote: THE FOLLOWING SOURCE PROVIDES INFORMATION REGARDING NEW TESTAMENT TEXT http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/historical.htm SUMMARY Copyist errors are rare but they do happen. I would need to look into the Solomon Bible verses further.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
to: jar
Were there good reasons for some books being left out? Please open a new string. This is off topic.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
I already addressed that Mr. Grant produced poor material.
I believe you are implying a logical fallacy which is:
quote: In short, just because one or more of Grant's books is bad does not mean they are all bad. For example, I could take your worst words and via these worse words I can say anthing you say is pointless. This of course, would not be fair.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
The above quote was taken from: Page not found - Nizkor
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
When I return I will have my Strong's concordance for the Hebrew and the Mr. Grant book with me plus I may have had some additional time to do some internet research. I also have somewhat of a good working relationship as far as Bible research with a Rabbi but he may be too busy to offer help in this matter and I do not want to impose. I looked at the Grant book yesterday and it appers to say the Jerusalem Talmud says some drunken soldiers started a fire in Solomon's Temple on the 9th day of Av and it continued to burn of the 10th day of Av. So did the fire burn out on the 10th and was restarted on the 10th by the official mentioned in the Bible? Did the official make the decision to let the fire continue? I am guessing the historical records may not provide enough details. I am also not enough of a Jewish historian to know the details on how the Talmud was put together.
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
clarification:
When I wrote: "I am also not enough of a Jewish historian to know the details on how the Talmud was put together" I did not mean to imply I am a historian. Sincerely, Ken
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
In another thread I posted that my internet debating has ended for a long time do to a change of priorities and interest. A copy of Strong's concordance is easy to obtain or other sources like Thayer's is also available. Plus Grant's book is widely available. I do not think I left that much of a loose end here at this time. I think minimal extra due diligence is required.
Sincerely, Ken
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