Below is Ray's Original OP
This restores the integrity of the Thread.
Message 1 of 195
06-08-2004 07:50 PM IP Logged
In previous topics I have generically defined "fundementalism" to be the bad element in any given good.
Now I will show from the Bible that my definition is correct, but, actually quite soft compared to what God thinks of fundementalism.
Obviously, the word itself - "fundementalism" does not appear in the Bible. This means the established religious community of OUR day - the fundementalists, must be identified via interpretation.
Fundementalism was a BRANCH of Protestantism, but now it IS Protestantism, as they, the fundemantalists, have completely taken over Protestant Christianity.
Protestantism was founded by the reformers on the basis that Protestants PROTEST (as Jesus put it) "the traditions that make void the word of God." Reformation Protestantism PROTESTED the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that voided out the Constituition of christianity - the written word of God/Bible.
But now the Fundementalists are the established religious community and they have long ago ceased protesting church traditions that make void the word of God. They are the staus quo, the 'old wine' and 'leaven' of the N.T.
Protestant christianity, from its inception, believes the canonized 66 books that make up the english Bible IS THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD.
Protestants believe that when the last Apostle died God ceased speaking. Unlike the Catholics, who believe God continues to speak through the Pope and when the Church meets in council, Protestants say God finished speaking when the Canon was settled. This means the written source speaks for God and it is the recognized authority/revelation by which God speaks.
When Judas the Betrayer hung himself this left an opening in the ranks of the apostles. In Acts chapter 1, Peter decided to cast lots to see who would replace Judas. They picked a person who history completely ignores. God, in Acts chapter 9 picked Saul of Tarsus who quickly became Paul the Apostle.
It is a fact that God used Paul to write two thirds of the N.T.
This means that Paul and his message is the God approved message. This means that IF scripture contradicts then whatever Paul says should overrule.
Paul, in Galatians 1:11,12 plainly declares that the gospel he preaches came from Jesus Himself and not from any man:
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul founded the church at Galatia, and the letter he wrote to the Galatians was a RESPONSE to the corruption of his Christ ordained message/gospel by the established church at Jerusalem.
The church at Jerusalem was pastored by James the epistle writer, the so called relative of Jesus. This church at Jerusalem was made up of Jewish converts. The only thing that needs to be seen is the fact that the church at Jerusalem, led by James, is the ESTABLISHED RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY/CHURCH of Paul's day.
Remember Jesus said "by your traditions you make void the word of God". Jesus directed that statement to the established religious community of His day - the Pharisees.
Acts 15:1
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
"From Judea" means from the church at Jerusalem and this command came from James, that new converts MUST be circumcised or they cannot be saved. Here we have the established religious communtiy, under the color of speaking for God DECLARING that you cannot be saved unless you get your penis cut !
Where did Jesus or Paul say that circumcision was necessary ?
They didn't.
The point is that the established religious community said an external conformity to Mosaic Law was necessary or you could not be saved.
Circumcision REPRESENTS any external adherence to Mosaic Law that the church requires as necessary to be saved. Can anybody tell me how many laws the established religious community of our day - the Fundementalists require christians to conform to or they aint saved ?
Every fundementalist denomination has their own set of "circumcision" rules that they say PROVES you are a christian. In Paul's day the church was hot for circumcision or you weren't a truly saved christian, circumcision is not an issue today, but every fundie denomination has their own Mosaic list that they say, the adherence to, proves your conversion.
In the topic "What is a True Christian", here is a perfect example of a fundie list of what a true christian is:
http://
EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->
EvC Forum: What is a True Christian?
This list includes: Inerrancy, attending the Jehovahs Witness church, not participating in war, and even a link to a site that allegedly lists "what God requires of us".
Reinhold Niebuhr said this about the Jehovah's Witnesses:
"They know their Bible...........................verses"
What an insult !
Anyway, what is missing from the link: The Gospel!
Not one word of gospel in it. I replied to the link and pointed that out but debater made a bunch of excuses. The point is that the Gospel wasn't in their heart, it wasn't in their list of things necessary to get saved.
Whats the gospel ? (please hold on - this post will end in a bang)
In the original greek the word is "euangelion" and it means "good news".
Prefix "eu"/good; "angel"(s) are messengers from God, thus euangelion/gospel literally means "good message from God".
Whats the good message from God ?
"get your penis cut ?"
"obey Moses law ?"
The good news/message from God is that He will accept FAITH (whatever that is) in place of the O.T. way of relating to Him via Mosaic Law. And faith, by defintion, has nothing to do with Mosaic Law. (Romans 3:20,21)
All evangelical Protestantism agrees that an act of faith directed at Christ gets you saved. The dispute with the established church begins right here. After conversion, the church at Jerusalem/established religious community/Fundementalists insist that keeping Law maintains your salvation. This is pure heresy.
My entire message is lost if you fail to realize that Fundementalism represents the established religious community/church which is perfectly typified in scripture with the church at Jerusalem. Their voiding of God's word comes when they require surface conformity to Moses Law, which has nothing to do with the new way to always relate to God: the way of faith - the gospel.
When the gospel is practiced God promises to dwell inside of the believer and change them miraculously all because of faith in Him.
Now the church at Jerusalem sent infiltrators to the church at Galatia. These "Judaizers" as they are called totally corrupted the gentile converts at Galatia. Their message from James was that you must be circumcised or you aint saved.
Paul responds in Galatians 1:7-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to PERVERT the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Paul labels those who corrupt the gospel to be "PERVERTS". In the original greek the word translated specifically means "to place that which is behind - in front"
Jesus was the Law Incarnate and God crucified Him. The law is past and it is abrogate, but the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists place it back in front thus perverting the gospel. Then Paul says that if he or an angel from heaven preaches any other "gospel" let them be accursed or more literally "God damned".
Paul the Apostle, who speaks for God, says that anyone who puts the law back in front of the way of faith/gospel is GOD DAMNED/accursed.
Fundementalists are always elevatng their version of the Law back in front and negating the gospel/way of faith. The Fundie message is if you really got saved then you will conform to Moses law. The truth is that God will propel the convert by changing him via His Spirit IF they continue how they started in their walk with Christ.
Paul echoes this sentiment perfectly here:
Galatians 3:1,2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth....This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
This means what it says. That the vehicle of change, the vehicle that saves is the Spirit and that Spirit is received by faith and operates by faith and not by conforming to the works of the law.
Fundementalism is that bewitching entity that perverts the gospel by misrepresenting the way a person walks with God. The reputation of fundementalism is to "circumcise"/cut on christians to make them into their image of Moses law. Some fundie churches say long hair is a sin; wearing make-up; dancing; smoking; going to movies; drinking any alcoholic beverage; certain clothes; just an endless list of do' and dont's.
Paul says in Galatians 5:2 If you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing
This means IF you do any work or law with the intent of gaining or maintaining standing with God - Christ will profit you nothing, and the next verse says you are now obligated to keep the whole law
The only activity going on in fundementalist churches is their version of circumcision/Moses law. This is the perversion of the gospel/way of faith condemned in Galatians 1.
The gospel is that you can start, continue, and finish by faith. This becomes perverted when the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalism resurrects the Law and demands compliance with whatever silly pet law that they exalt back in front of the gospel.
WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF FUNDEMENTALISTS ?
Paul tells us in Galatians chapter 4
This is Paul's master argument:
Abraham had two sons.
One by a bondwoman (Hagar/Ishmael) the other by a freewoman (Sarah/Isaac)
Verses 24, 25 says this is SYMBOLIC of two covenants: (Old and New)
Mt. Sinai/Moses law/O.T which is Hagar/Ishmael and bondage to that O.T. law, which CORRESPONDS to Jerusalem "which now is"/Fundementalism
Then verse 26 says Jerusalem "above" is free and likens that freedom to be children of promise, as Isaac was, a product of miracle according to the promise of God.
Paul is equating Isaac with the promise of miracle deliverance from the demands of Mt. Sinai law, because Isaac was a miracle birth by promise of God to Abraham.
Mt.Sinai/Law/Hagar/Jerusalem now/Fundementalism
vs.
Jerusalem Above/Isaac/miracle promise/gospel.
Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Paul is quoting Genesis 21:10.
Ishmael persecuted Isaac says Genesis. Paul, speaking for God, interprets this to mean that the circumcision crowd of Jerusalem/Fundementalists do the exact same thing to the true christians who walk exclusively by faith/the gospel.
God told Abraham to cast out the bondwoman and her son that Ishmael shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman/Isaac.
Paul quotes Genesis 21:10 and applies it to the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists and says "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"
Dr. Scott says it in plain english:
"Throw the mother fuckers out"
Thats what God thinks of fundementalists.
Do not try to save them. Do not love them - throw them out !
This is why Dr. Scott says EVERYONE is welcome in his church except "God damn fundementalists"
Edit: Message 12 in this topic is now officially added to this OP. Here is the content that I feel is pertinent to know:
Concerning whether the Bible is the word of God or not:
This is the claim of the Canon (OP) and we Protestants (Fundie and non fundie) bow to this claim.
This topic is not about the claim of the Bible whether it is God's word or not. I dedicated much of the OP in establishing this fact but only to show non Protestants that we (fundie and non fundie Protestants) BOTH accept the Bible to be the word of God so I can proceed to demonstrate to everyone FROM their own source how it condemns them.
™ Version 4.2
