Lesbian Archers for Rei

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After some thought about it, I'm surprised you make this analogy. It demonstrates an inability to discern the difference between a positive claim - "something exists" - and a negative claim - "something doesn't exist."

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First off, let me thank you for answering the question posed as to what you feel about this armor is unrealistic (although you still haven't answered why you feel that is relevant). If I am correct in assuming, your reason for thinking that it is not relevant is that the picture clearly is that if the armor doesn't exactly fit a single historical style, then it's irrelevant to make an assessment based on reality. However, the earlier presented picture of Joan of Arc was even further from reality. Should we not assess her in a historical context? That's why I feel this line of argument is irrelevant.BTW, I'm just curious as to what features make you think this looks like "unfluted Maximillan" armor, especially since fluting was probably the most recognisable characteristic of maximillan armor (lightening it and increasing its strength). Numerous cultures have used scale armor on top of a fabric or leather armor - including ancient India. Highly decorative armor is also a feature of many earlier cultures. Indian armor, too, included leaf-shaped plates made of gold, copper, or bronze. Note that this is just a side tangent, as my main issue is that I do not know what fantasy context this person is from, and chose (and stated) a reality context instead. Feel free to take issue with that, or to name a fantasy context that you would prefer an assessment in.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Got any more examples? You're currently running at one "asexual or lesbian" and one Chinese myth. Note that I didn't pick these examples - you did - and you're only hurting your point. Want *me* to pick the examples?

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Of what, exactly? One or two lesbians in armor aren't going to prove your point.

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Actually, they were *your* examples - you were accidentally working towards proving my point. Want *me* to list examples?Not only do we have Joan, we have "Kit" Christiana Welsch - Born 1667, fought in the battle of Namur in 1695; served in several regiments, including the 2nd Royal British Dragoons. She survived the battle of Blenheim in 1704 without injury, but was wounded at Ramilles in 1706 and was unmasked as female by her surgeon. At one point she even dualed with a sergeant over a woman that they were both in love with.Actually, before I go on... name how many examples you want. As long as it doesn't take too much time, I'll type up that many.By the way, remember how I said that military service is yet another indicator factor? Guess what - I wasn't kidding. Even in today's society (let alone when it was the exclusive domain as men), partnered lesbians alone are more than 5 times more likely than straight women to serve in the military, *despite* "Don't ask, Don't tell" (and the former policy, which was best summed up as "No."). We're talking about women who have to conceal their relationship, *still* joining at a 5-fold higher rate. Old women in the military - i.e., ones who have made it their career - are about 9 times more likely.I'm not kidding when I mention indicator factors. When you get enough of them, you can make a pretty good judgement. Here's going to be another one: Women who take combat roles are going to have even higher percentages than women who don't. Care to help me see if I can find statistics? ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Because it's obvious to me that you'd assess using a historical context only if it was a historical person. Since her armor is fictional we can assume therefore that she's not a historical person. Therefore the historical context is irrelevant. I've answered this several times. Not all Maximillian armor was fluted, as far as I know. I've seem armor in that style - historical armor - that is not fluted. To my eye the most recognizable aspects are its construction: extremely close-fitting plates of armor. Her amor fits very closely (examine how the back of her helmet follows the curve of her head, for instance.) Yes. The words you're looking for are "brigandine", "jazaraint", or "lamellar".Nonetheless European armor was not using scales when they were using plate. Earlier cultures, yes. But the armor we're looking at has Indian-style ornamentation on top of Gothic German-style armor. That did not appear in Europe at any time. Dungeons and Dragons, 2nd or 3rd Editions, because that's what that's a picture from.

That may very well be. Yet that doesn't mean that a majority of women in the army are lesbians. Therefore it's lunacy to say "odds are, a woman soldier is gay." (And don't bother bringing up "short hair" -it's the military, they all have short hair!)Be clear on what I'm saying. There is an increased chance, as opposed to nominal women, that this woman in question is gay. But, the odds are still in favor of her being straight, because the majority of women who do what she does, and are like her - in any context - are straight.

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That may very well be. Yet that doesn't mean that a majority of women in the army are lesbians. Therefore it's lunacy to say "odds are, a woman soldier is gay." (And don't bother bringing up "short hair" -it's the military, they all have short hair!)

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Crashfrog, again I don't mean to be insulting (and please don't take it this way), but have you not read what I have written in this thread? I have continually stated that it is a combination of multiple factors that one uses to decide, and that one factor alone just increases the probability. Do I need to list yet again the properties present in the picture that I based my "likely" assessment on?Also, I would like an answer to a particular question that I haven't seen an answer for (if you did answer and I missed it, I apologize): Did you ever actually ask the people of the hockey team of their sexuality like you claimed that you did earlier?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Funny, that's what I was going to ask you. I realize you're using a variety of factors. What I'm saying is that the majority of women who exhibit those factors - yes, even all of them - are still straight. Therefore your factors cannot be used to say "odds are she's gay", because those factors really mean "odds are higher that she's gay, but it's still more likely that she's straight."So what the hell do your factors matter? Not a bit. The majority of people with your factors - assuming your factors don't include "makes love to only women" - are straight. Some of them. My wife asked some others. I believe it was a representative sample. There's no reason to believe that my wife was a sexual minority among her hockey peers.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 12-05-2003]

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What I'm saying is that the majority of women who exhibit those factors - yes, even all of them - are still straight.

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That's not how you portrayed my stance in your last post at all.

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assuming your factors don't include "makes love to only women"

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Can you see why I wonder whether you actually read what I have written?

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Some of them. My wife asked some others. I believe it was a representative sample. There's no reason to believe that my wife was a sexual minority among her hockey peers.

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Let's put some numbers on this, Crashfrog. How many people *did* you ask, and out of how many? What reason do we have to believe that there was no sample selection bias? Given a later response of yours, as to what you asked the people: Let me offer a guess as to what actually happened - let me know whether I'm right or wrong on this one: You simply asked your wife, or your wife and one or two other players, what their personal opinions (i.e., the opinions of people who probably have little to no experience with the GLBT community, and thus would have little ability to recognize distinguishing features) are on this subject, and then came here and translated that to the staunch, matter of fact claim: Is this correct? If not, please elaborate.Back to an earlier thread...

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Dungeons and Dragons, 2nd or 3rd Editions, because that's what that's a picture from.

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I would be curious as to how you come to this conclusion. What convinces you that it is from there, as opposed to elsewhere?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Well, you haven't yet exhaustively enumerated your "factors", only suggested some of them, so it's difficult to determine exactly what factors you're talking about. One might assume that you're hedging your bets in case it turns out that women who share all the factors you've listed so far tend to be straight - which they are.So, what factors are you talking about? We need to know all of them if we're supposed to take them seriously. This isn't a tangent worth pursuing. The thread is about your experiences with lesbians, not mine. I've played both Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. I know the image isn't from Neverwinter Nights, because I'm playing that now, but I could be from Baldur's Gate I, though I have no specific recollection of the image, or from Baldur's Gate II or Icewind Dale, which I haven't played. Nonetheless the art style of the image is identical to images from the Bioware games that I played. The image is clearly meant to act as an avatar or character portrait. It's a reasonable conclusion that it's from one of those games.By the way, when are you going to stop side-stepping the real question here - whatever factors you're using, is it your belief that the majority of women who possess them are gay? If so, what leads you to such an erroenus belief? If not, why would you say that "odds are, she's gay" if having those factors means "odds are, she's straight"?

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I know the image isn't from Neverwinter Nights, because I'm playing that now,

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Hold your horses there Crash. Just because you haven't bumped into that portrait yet, does not mean it is not in it, nor that it was not designed for it.Have you been out to the download section of the NWN website. They have tons of portraits available there. In fact, its been simple laziness on my part to skim through the few (hundred I think) additional portraits made available to see if she is one of them. By the way if you have not, you've missed all sorts of cool other adventures you can go on. I had not realized how expansive that system was... by which I mean how much FREE material is out there to play.On a side note, where are you in NWN? Currently me and my gf are on the 2nd Chapter. Is it better than Baldur's Gate or worse (I've been thinking of buying BG)?And as a finale... has anyone asked the guy whose avatar it was, where he got it from?------------------
holmes

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Well, you haven't yet exhaustively enumerated your "factors", only suggested some of them, so it's difficult to determine exactly what factors you're talking about.

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Ok, Crash, for the third time. Please don't make me do it a fourth time. (note that the above assumes that she chose this particular lifestyle, that she chose her particular armor, assumes a anglo-saxon historical context as has been previously stated (we've already discussed the merits of this - regardless of the merits of this particular context, it's what context the assessment was made in) , etc).

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Let's put some numbers on this, Crashfrog. How many people *did* you ask, and out of how many?

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This isn't a tangent worth pursuing. The thread is about your experiences with lesbians, not mine.

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Then do you retract your assertions? I think we've pretty much concluded here that what you said was completely incorrect - you did not ask the team their sexuality, you asked a tiny handful of people (was it even more than one?) to assess other people's sexualities - something that you yourself have been faulting me for doing. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

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I would be curious as to how you come to this conclusion. What convinces you that it is from there, as opposed to elsewhere?

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I've played both Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. I know the image isn't from Neverwinter Nights, because I'm playing that now, but I could be from Baldur's Gate I, though I have no specific recollection of the image, or from Baldur's Gate II or Icewind Dale, which I haven't played. Nonetheless the art style of the image is identical to images from the Bioware games that I played. The image is clearly meant to act as an avatar or character portrait. It's a reasonable conclusion that it's from one of those games.

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It also looks similar to the hero portraits for the Heroes of Might and Magic games (3 and 4). And to images from a number of anime artbooks. Doing a google image search for "elven" (I was getting too much static with "elf"), the first images that I run into that appear to be this style are from a witchcraft page, a game called icewind dale, a character from something called "Orphan Guild", and the Lord of the Rings. Of course, this is assuming that she's an elf, which helps bias the sample in that direction (how do you come to the conclusion that she's an elf, by the way? Name your criteria)------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Well, could be. I haven't run into it yet, and I think I've seen all the generic NPC portraits, so unless it's a specific character's portrait who I haven't encountered, it's not in the game I think. But, it could be. I'm towards the end of chapter 2, in Luskan.NWN is way better than Baldur's Gate. For one thing the 3rd edition rules make all the difference to me. I love the actual 3d world. The character models and animation are better. It's a much funner game for me, which should be indicated by the fact that I'm playing it like a full-time job. If you're looking for more, I'd stick with the expansions for NWN, or start playing it online...

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And as a finale... has anyone asked the guy whose avatar it was, where he got it from?

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That would just take all the fun out of it, now wouldn't it? ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ok. And that's all of them, right?Is it therefore your belief that the majority of women with these characteristics are lesbians? That's highly contrary to my own experience with women who match your description except for the "not as costume" part. What experience do you have with women with short hair, anti-dainty manners, armor and weapons, and sometimes short hair that lead you to believe that the majority of them are lesbians? That's the point of this thread. Woah, wait a minute. I'm not faulting you for assessing her sexuality. I'm faulting you for trying to assess her sexuality via characteristics that have nothing to do with sexuality. I assessed the sexuality of the hockey team based on whether or not they expressed a desire to have sex with only women. You're trying to assess her sexuality based on whether or not you feel like she's a lesbian or not. That is not an anime image. Which is one of the Bioware games I mentioned. Her armor looks elvish to me. It's hard to tell without seeing her ears.

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Ok. And that's all of them, right?

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There's also the second paragraph, which had elaboration (when I was forced to reiterate, I went into more detail). Want me to sum up, or is simply reading both paragraphs that I posted right next to each other good enough for you?

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I think we've pretty much concluded here that what you said was completely incorrect - you did not ask the team their sexuality, you asked a tiny handful of people (was it even more than one?) to assess other people's sexualities - something that you yourself have been faulting me for doing.

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Woah, wait a minute. I'm not faulting you for assessing her sexuality. I'm faulting you for trying to assess her sexuality via characteristics that have nothing to do with sexuality. I assessed the sexuality of the hockey team based on whether or not they expressed a desire to have sex with only women.

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But you didn't, though. You assessed the sexuality of the team by asking (one? A small handful?) of people what *they* (people with assumedly little experience) *thought* the sexuality of the team was, and used that for highly generalized conclusions. I find it unbelievable that you'd do that, and then fault me.

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You're trying to assess her sexuality based on whether or not you feel like she's a lesbian or not.

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Given a number of factors, and a specified context. By the way, if we change the context from "historical anglo-saxon" to "D&D", my answer is "of course not". It is only in this context where those are a number of indicative factors that add together.

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It also looks similar to the hero portraits for the Heroes of Might and Magic games (3 and 4). And to images from a number of anime artbooks.

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That is not an anime image.

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I will restate, with boldface: And to images from a number of anime artbooks.. Do you know what an anime artbook is?

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Her armor looks elvish to me. It's hard to tell without seeing her ears.

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Wait a minute... you fault *me* for coming to the conclusion that she is "likely" a lesbian based on a number of factors, and you base your conclusion that she is an elf( which you stated unambiguously "Are you kidding? She's an elf!"), on your view that "Her armor looks elvish to me. It's hard to tell without seeing her ears"? My eyes did a double take when I saw that line, given how you've been judging me.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-05-2003]

No, that's fine with me. I understood what you meant.What I don't see is an answer to my question. Did you ask the woman in the picture? Did you ask anybody who asked the woman in the picture? If I had judged the sexuality of the team from their yearbook picture, I'd be as bad as you. Instead I'm judging them by their own statements on their sexuality and their own reported sexual behavior. I think so... are you talking about stuff like Masamune Shirow's Interon Depot? Or something else? 1) Elves have distinct physical features unique to their race. Lesbians do not.2) Elves have a distinct, unique cultural style that influences their weapons and armor (among other things). Lesbians do not.Elvishness is something you can judge on sight, from a picture. Lesbianism, being a behavior preference, is not.How come you keep avoiding the most important question of this thread, Rei? Is it even worth talking to you if you won't address the most important part of your position? I'll give you one more post to answer the question, after that I'm done talking to you. If you need me to repeat the question just ask.