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Author Topic:   Dr. Robert T. Bakker's thoughts on ID and Atheism in schools.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 78 of 111 (233602)
08-16-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by randman
08-15-2005 1:08 AM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
Evos generally don't believe an open-minded, intelligent and reasonable person could reject their evolutionist faith based on the evidence, which is why people like continually lie about why others reject ToE. It is inconceivable to you that others can view the evidence as being against ToE so you don't even give them a proper hearing, and as such, evolutionists are generally very close-minded people on this subject.
I have to admit it is inconceivable to me that any openminded, intelligent, and reasonable person could reject evolutionary theory as the best scientific theory we have for speciation (save symbiosis) based on evidence.
One has all the evidence they need to construct that theory. One can see the mechanism of change in organisms through procreation. This is even measurable. Thus we have change over time, and that is indisputable (unless you want to explain breeding programs using gods or aliens).
The next question would be how much can a species change? Can a species potentially change into any other species over time? Are there limits? This is still not determined which is why symbiosis or even theories with multiple "lines" generating from the bacterial "bush" of life are possible. However, there could certainly be speciation along certain lines, and we have seen this in plantlife at the very least.
The fossil record does in fact support the possibility of somewhat flexible (though perhaps not wholesale) speciation. As yet it contains no evidence which would be contrary to that model. And the fact that the record moves from simple to complex over time is in some great measure corroborative of that theory.
It is true that we do not have 100% or maybe not even 0.001% of all life traced backwards with transitional forms to its beginnings. What is false is to pretend that that acts as some sort of counterevidence to the TOE. The TOE does not need all of that, given that we see change happening right now, we merely need some suggestions within the record of speciation through transitional forms.
Any at all is supportive, none at all makes no real difference, even if it isn't helpful. The only counterevidence would be fossils which could not be supported by (fit into) the TOE.
Okay so that is all the evidence we have, and that is good enough. What evidence does the other side have in support of its position? Indeed what is the competing model?
If you are openminded, intelligent, and reasonable then there is no doubt you will admit that at this point in time, sans assumptions that statements found in the Bible are real cases of observances, the only current model at all is evolutionary theory, and that it is the only one with positive evidence.
If you disagree I'd love to hear what other theories there are (explain the model) and lay out the evidence.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 1:08 AM randman has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 86 of 111 (235385)
08-22-2005 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by randman
08-22-2005 2:11 AM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
I don't want to get into the transitional fossil issue right now. You seem not to understand it, but for sake of argument, you can keep holding your position.
What I am curious about is what your actual position is. You appear on other threads as a big booster for ID theory, but ID theory does not argue for individual creation of different species from whole cloth. They quite clearly do argue that they accept OE paradigms, and (for the most part) the purported Evo fossil record.
I know that Wells and some others have criticized some of the unusually large extrapolations/theories made by evos based on fossils. But that is different than what you seem to be implying.
Behe (one of the best ID has to offer) states quite clearly that the concept of common descent, including exactly as evos suggest, could be correct and not problematic with ID. Where and how the designer worked could be at the stage of abiogenesis, or mere tweaking of genes within creatures at needed times. The result would be a fossil record with the same amount of transitionals evos would need to use as evidence for their theory.
Are you an ID theorist, or someone who believes that an intelligence designed life? And if an ID theorist, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy between your position on the fossil record and much of theirs?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 2:11 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 12:37 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 89 of 111 (235425)
08-22-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
08-22-2005 9:02 AM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
The person is a very conservative/fundamentalist Christian, or sometimes Muslim.
Why not jews? If I remember right, one of the ID sites which I was looking over before coming to EvC, was jewish fundamentalist in orientation. The Discovery Institute is proud to note there are Jews in their ranks, to show how religiously diverse they are. And hearing some of the zionist nutballs talking, they have no problem with Genesis being 100% real.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 08-22-2005 9:02 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 08-22-2005 10:11 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 91 of 111 (235449)
08-22-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by nator
08-22-2005 10:11 AM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
Canadian Steve is jewish. I made the mistake of calling him Xian once. I think the reason jewish fundies have less of a presence is that there are simply less jews in general, and are perhaps a bit less vocal than Xians and Muslims.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 08-22-2005 10:11 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 08-22-2005 10:21 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:30 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 94 of 111 (235458)
08-22-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by nator
08-22-2005 10:21 AM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
Jews place a very high importance upon secular education, admire and appreciate academia, etc., so maybe there are proportionately fewer ignorant fundie Jews than ignorant fundie Christians?
I can't say percentages might favor this in general, but I think that is an untrue stereotype. There are very very ignorant Jews just as great as Xians. Remember most settlers actually believe the land is theirs because God actually gave it to them. There are also very large mystical movements inconsistent with secular "knowledge". Kabbalah is a good starting example.
Also, Judaism is the opposite of a religion that actively seeks converts.
I think this is the key. Judaism is "introverted", compared to the other two Abrahamic religions which are "extroverted".

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 08-22-2005 10:21 AM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 95 of 111 (235460)
08-22-2005 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
08-22-2005 10:30 AM


Re: Jewish fundies etc.
Wait a second I though I saw CS supporting creo. Are you sure about that?
In any case, I think that to my and schraf's perspective he'd likely be a "fundie". He certainly argues a very conservative line.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:49 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 101 of 111 (235511)
08-22-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
08-22-2005 10:49 AM


Re: Jewish fundies etc.
Here's one thing he said on that subject:
And that's more than enough. Point proven.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 111 (235565)
08-22-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by randman
08-22-2005 12:37 PM


Re: Respect earned by the validity of science
I am unaware that they agree with evolutionist's characterization of the fossil evidence, and have heard IDers propose multiple intrusions of design or creation to account for the development of life, which is indeed more consistent with the fossil record.
There are ID theorists who knock evo fossil record interpretations. However, I have yet to see any ID model which does not use essentially the same record. Of course there is a different understanding for what is happening (a designer from outside changing something, instead of internal natural change) but the record is of simple life moving toward greater "complexity" (not exactly the complexity meant by ID), and no absolutely unique life suddenly appearing from nothing. That is of course except the very first life, and perhaps the cambrian explosion.
My own position is to actually first try to see what the data says instead of first having a theory to try to fit the data into, as evolutionists did and do, which is why they cannot offer plausible well-defined definitions of claims like the meaning of "rare" in talking about fossilization. I tried in vain to get an evo here to define "rare" but they refused.
This characterization may be true for some currently working in evolutionary theory, but I think it is errant when referring to those who built the theory, as well a characterization of most or all people that believe evo is the best scientific theory we currently have.
I don't know what your "rare" issue is. What definition does a person need besides the regular definition of that word? Do you mean some sort of quantification?
So ToE does not match up with the fossil record. That, first of all, should be obvious to any objective observer, which is why some have proposed Punctuated Equilibrium.
That's an unfair characterization which you do not need to use to make your point. It would be valid enough to point out that the record did not support original ideas regarding mechanisms for change. PE is a useful and worthy description of plausible mechanisms. Why not just point out that there could also be others?
You would of course have to work out a model of other mechanisms. PE is a bit easier in that it does not require extraneous mechanisms from what we see already. Niches are stable, and life changes when environment changes.
although I don't think universal common descent is really correct, but Ned particularly has threatened to ban if I try to discuss it.
I have no knowledge of this conflict. It seems odd that he'd pan your ability to start a thread on this topic... even in the Coffee House?
The implication of this is that when we find some scant similarity, such as with teeth or the ear (as in whale evolutionary models), and claim a mutual ancestor for these traits, that is a completely unfounded claim since the exact same traits could arise via convergent evolution and even convergent DNA mutation patterns with or without natural selection. It could be traits arise and remain when natural selection is neutral and no selective advantage is conferred.
I agree that this could be a logical possibility. I am uncertain of the probability, and when we get to where any particular entity is found in a fossil record and what bounds that entity, the probabilities might suggest (though admittedly cannot prove) common ancestory. I am not claiming this is the case with every entity, but indicating what you would have to deal with.
So imo, the first order of business is to review the assumptions going into the data, and look at this stuff, not as needing to fit into a current theory, but try to see it as it is and go from there.
I have no problem with this. My main concern would be to have stringent guidelines for working out potential models. I think Occam's razor is useful and necessary.
The paradigm or ideology is thus key and paramount, and not the facts, and this is exactly why I consider evolutionism a faith-based ideology.
I think this is unfair for many people, and is slightly distorting what people mean when they want to "stick with" the current paradigm. In most cases it seems people are suggesting that science acknowledge the best current model, and work proceed within that model until problems arise which forces a revision, or independent work provides a more coherent model before problems arise. I see no problem with that.
There are certainly evos who treat the theory and (worse than that) specific mechanical models as if they are reality, and move to defend the models rather than accept questions. They are problem individuals, or goups of individuals, but not evos as a whole.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 12:37 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 2:48 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 105 of 111 (235607)
08-22-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by randman
08-22-2005 2:48 PM


First off, we see abrupt appearances of very complex life forms, not simplicity to complexity. Moreover, Behe and others have shown that so-called "simple" life forms are actually very, very complex.
You are making an error. I was suggesting a relative big picture thing, and not microscale component estimates.
Whether cellular structure and basic arrangement began in the record as complex, and at that level has remained the same complexity up till now, is not the issue.
The arrangement and organization of those structures has most certainly grown more varied and/or complex. This is not disputed even by ID theorists (at least none that I have read). The Cambrian explosion did not include birds, many forms of colored flowers, insects, and both large reptiles and large mammals.
The Cambrian explosion was a growth in abundance and diversity of organisms within the same environment as life up till that time had existed. They were novel, but within an environment. Fossil evidence shows movement to new environments over time with growth in abundance and diversity in each new environment.
We see symbiosis, and remnants of symbiosis, which is indicative of life merging within environments (creating their own subenvironments).
We see, life moving from marine, to land, to air, gaining different forms of mobility and physicall traits from fish, to reptile, to bird and mammal, etc etc.
One can argue one did not spring from the other naturally, but they certainly did appear in order.
Those are astonishing exceptions which I would argue make the evo argument of life not appearing from nothing a moot point.
They aren't astonishing at all. The first fully replicating organism would be the first unique life. In reality it didn't come from nothing but it is highly unlikely we could ever find fossil evidence of the chemical precursors.
In the case of the Cambrian explosion we have a growth in diversity which is inherently new and unique forms. Again, according to the ToE they don't actually spring from nothing, but in the fossil record that is how it could appear given the inability of precursors to fossilize or perhaps the wide array of life to change between generations (or even within generations) at that time. We cannot be certain how much of that life was like species today which have drastically different forms between generations and withing their own life cycle.
Evos have never shown that fossilization is so rare that we should not expect to see most, if not nearly all, the transitional forms in evolutionary models
Are you kidding me? Can't you find that out for yourself? Go to an old cemetary before they used concrete and start digging up graves. Find out how many bodies are on the way to fossilization. Man this isn't so much evo/bio theory as it is chemistry and geochemisty.
Replacing organic material with minerals has to be body and environment specific.
"Rare" comes in because as hard as that is get that to happen, it would be harder to have entities existing within a very small time frame to fall into those exact same conditions, and harder still to have exactly the right individuals changing within the changing environment to fall into those same conditions.
If you have an entity with is likely to fossilize and in an environment conducive to that process, then you are likely to find a lot of them there, especially if many lived and dies over a long period of time.
Because I have never seen an evolutionist admit in a debate that the fossil record did not support the original evo contentions of gradualistic evolution, and yet some advocate PE as a solution to the problem they say never existed.
You must be kidding. Start reading Gould and Eldridge. They are the evos that came up with PE. They say exactly what you just said no evo has admitted. That was their life's work.
If you mean to say that the fossil record had always been in conflict, then you are simply wrong. It had not been in conflict until (ironically enough) evos studying the record found fossil based conflicts with gradual mechanisms. Until that time, no one was aware of the conflicts and so gradualism was acceptable.
An answer that we don't know is better than insisting on a wrong answer because you think the alternatives are more wrong.
Anyone saying that they know evo theory actually happened, particularly with all the currently ascribed mechanisms, would be way off. The actual answer I have ever been taught in science is that we don't actually know what happened, but evo theory is the best working model we have to date.
I am unsure where you have seen a different position stated, but I will back you up that they would be wrong.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 2:48 PM randman has not replied

  
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