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Author Topic:   Relative Motion (A Thought Experiment)
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4287 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 16 of 86 (127309)
07-24-2004 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
07-24-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Relative orbiting
NosyNed writes:
They are orbiting relative to the center of mass. I think that you could detect the motion because there would be "extra" coreolis forces. The center of the orbits isn't the center of the earth. It is under the earth's surface though. The earth then is being "flung around" a point under it's surface. I'm pretty sure that would be detectable.
Yes, I've considered this too. But again, I'm curious about the question of relativity.
I know that they orbit around their centre of mass but do they actually move relative to their centre of mass? The way I visualize it (and I may be completely wrong about this), the two gravitating bodies and their centre of mass, relative to each other, stay exactly where they are. From all three points of reference wouldn't you see the other two as stationary (in a tidally locked system)?
It seems to me that it would be necessary to have a point of reference outside the system. Anything that is a part of the system (planet, moon, and centre of mass) will see it as motionless. If we allow that they do orbit each other, we still won't see that from within because there is no relative motion within the system. The system "moves" as a whole, but only relative to an external point of reference.
The point is that, in this scenario, there is no external point of reference. I think what I'm having trouble with is whether or not there is a difference between a system (any system) that has an "overall" motion with no external, relative point of reference and a system that has no "overall" motion at all.
Just to be clear about this, I'm not arguing against the idea of motion. I for one believe that these hypothetical bodies could orbit each other, just as they do in this universe, and I have no doubt that you could detect the effects of their orbits.
What I'm really trying to wrap my head around is how this can be when there is nothing relative to their orbit. My mind has trouble dealing with this one because "motion" would seem to lose all meaning if it's not relative to something. As far as I can tell, motion is defined as changes in relative proximity and orientation. If there is nothing to relate to, how can these changes occur?
The same thing with the original question. Could a sole planet, alone in an otherwise barren universe, rotate for example? My mind seems to experience a jarring contradiction here. Almost simultaneously, I don't see why not...and...I don't see how it possibly could.
Am I making any sense? Because I certainly don't feel like I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 07-24-2004 12:08 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 07-24-2004 4:01 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4287 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 17 of 86 (127311)
07-24-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
07-24-2004 1:39 PM


Lam writes:
It wasn't abandoned. It was just given up.
Seriously? You mean it's still considered a legitimate theory (or at least hypothesis)? I always thought it was one of those long dead ideas like the steady state theory. Well I must admit I'm surprised. I honestly had no idea that the concept was still given serious consideration.
Lam writes:
We know that light is both particle and wave.
I always thought that the particle/wave duality of light showed how the ether was not necessary. As I understood it, light being able to travel as particles and waves, is capable of travelling through empty space, whereas a mere wave requires a medium through which to propagate.
It seems that I misunderstood. That's what I get for being an "amateur scientist".
Please feel free to set me straight on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 07-24-2004 1:39 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by coffee_addict, posted 07-24-2004 3:34 PM Tony650 has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 122 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 18 of 86 (127325)
07-24-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tony650
07-24-2004 2:47 PM


Tony writes:
You mean it's still considered a legitimate theory (or at least hypothesis)?
It's not.
I always thought it was one of those long dead ideas like the steady state theory.
It is.
Well I must admit I'm surprised. I honestly had no idea that the concept was still given serious consideration.
It's not.
The problem with the ether hypothesis was that it wasn't proposed because of some kind of direct evidence. It was proposed because it was thought to be necessary. Unfortunately, even the hypothesis itself makes it hard to find any evidence to support its existence. How can you even detect something that's supposed to be able to go through everything without a problem?
I always thought that the particle/wave duality of light showed how the ether was not necessary. As I understood it, light being able to travel as particles and waves, is capable of travelling through empty space, whereas a mere wave requires a medium through which to propagate.
Yes, you are correct. However, do you really know what the duality of particle/wave nature of light is? It's an interesting concept, but it can only be shown mathematically and no more, just like the dimensions beyond our space-time.
It seems that I misunderstood. That's what I get for being an "amateur scientist".
No, you have not misunderstood.
Please feel free to set me straight on this.
You mean you're gay?

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tony650, posted 07-24-2004 2:47 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 07-24-2004 4:04 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 41 by Tony650, posted 07-26-2004 1:49 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7439 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 19 of 86 (127332)
07-24-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tony650
07-24-2004 11:57 AM


Tony650 writes:
I truly didn't intend it to be a trick question.
I know you didn't, and forgive me if you feel accused.
The problem that I'm having is not simply that the Earth and moon don't appear to be orbiting each other, from either's perspective. What I'm having trouble understanding is how the concept of them orbiting each other has any meaning if there is nothing for them to be orbiting relative to.
To inhabitants on the earth, it would have no meaning. To them, it wouldn't appear that there is any orbiting at all, and more or less all motion *IS* is a matter of appearances.
I guess what I'm trying to get clear in my mind is what motion actually is.
I think it's best regarded as an abstraction. It's the continuum of associations that we make in our minds between our memories of the past and our observations and the present.
If all motion is relative then how can the tidally locked bodies in our hypothetical universe "move" around each other?
If we didn't know that they were orbiting (which, since you stated the they were, is what made your question tricky ) there would be no way to discern that they were moving absent some additional point of reference moving non-uniformly to the earth-moon system.
Since they are the only points of reference that exist, and neither of them moves relative to the other, can the concept of them orbiting each other have any meaning?
I'd say no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tony650, posted 07-24-2004 11:57 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brad McFall, posted 07-24-2004 3:57 PM :æ: has not replied
 Message 42 by Tony650, posted 07-26-2004 2:07 PM :æ: has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5287 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 20 of 86 (127334)
07-24-2004 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by :æ:
07-24-2004 3:53 PM


That only addressed the psycholgical aspect. People go on rollar coasters at Darien Lake becuase they FEeL viscerally the same you abstracted. I think we moderns speak too much of space and time as if they were the same things as the black and white stripes that if rotated around your head would cause involutary motions physiologically much like Pavlof once thought.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 07-24-2004 02:58 PM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9012
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 21 of 86 (127336)
07-24-2004 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tony650
07-24-2004 2:43 PM


Re: Relative orbiting
It seems to me that it would be necessary to have a point of reference outside the system. Anything that is a part of the system (planet, moon, and centre of mass) will see it as motionless. If we allow that they do orbit each other, we still won't see that from within because there is no relative motion within the system. The system "moves" as a whole, but only relative to an external point of reference.
Have a look at this site:
Page Not Found | Science Mission Directorate
Go half a page down and watch the "full-length movie".
This shows a spinning merry-go-round. On it there is no relative motion between the participants. But the ball they throw behaves very different than if the platform is stationary. I think, maybe, the same effect would be detectable in the case of the lone earth-moon system.
However, there is also the idea of Mach's principle. You might want to google that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tony650, posted 07-24-2004 2:43 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by Tony650, posted 07-26-2004 2:13 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9012
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 22 of 86 (127337)
07-24-2004 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by coffee_addict
07-24-2004 3:34 PM


Two slit experiment
Yes, you are correct. However, do you really know what the duality of particle/wave nature of light is? It's an interesting concept, but it can only be shown mathematically and no more, just like the dimensions beyond our space-time.
I disagree. The dual nature of light (and all matter) is demonstrated experimentally by the two slit experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by coffee_addict, posted 07-24-2004 3:34 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 6162 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 23 of 86 (127350)
07-24-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tony650
07-23-2004 12:59 PM


T650
The reason I'm having trouble getting my mind around this one is because I can't see how "motion" can exist as an independent quality on its own. Isn't the very concept defined by the relative proximity and position of multiple bodies? It seems to me that for "The Earth is moving" to make any sense it must have something to be moving relative to
If we are on the surface of earth aboard a train travelling at 60 mph we can use the train as a fixed reference point and state that the earth is moving relative to our reference point on board.
At the same time, I also have trouble accepting the idea that motion is some kind of indecisive quality that can (at least in principle) be switched on and off, dependent on the number of objects in the universe
It is not indecisive but relative to the reference frame.
Let's say that the one object is now a spaceship and I fire the engines. Am I moving? Is there any way that I could know if I was? There's nothing else out there for me to compare myself to but does this really mean that I'm not moving, or simply that there's no way for me to know that I'm moving?
Well the problem here is that you will not have a reference frame to establish that you are moving however if in doing experiments aboard the spacecraft you had determined that in all your trials that an object moves in reaction to an opposite force then you could tentitively consider motion on your part also due to the thrust of the engine.You could not verify that though.It would go a long way to explaining also why you experience the need to react to the acceleration by bracing your legs against it.
find it hard to believe that "motion" would cease to exist in this way because it seems to me that there would then be other problems. For example, could a tidally locked system like Pluto and Charon exist on their own, without falling into each other?
They would each orbit about the barycenter of their gravitaional system.
Now do the bodies stay separated from each other or do they fall together? My thinking is that they would stay apart, just as they do in this universe but the question is why? How can they be said to be orbiting each other, in a universe where there is no other point of reference?
One would orbit the other in reference to the other one.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 07-24-2004 03:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tony650, posted 07-23-2004 12:59 PM Tony650 has replied

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RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 86 (127391)
07-24-2004 10:15 PM


am i way off
for thinking that your point of reference would have to be outside of the universe ???
as in a higher medium to move into for motion to be evaluated as actually happening...

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by sidelined, posted 07-24-2004 10:45 PM RingoKid has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6162 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 25 of 86 (127393)
07-24-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RingoKid
07-24-2004 10:15 PM


Re: am i way off
RingoKid
A point of reference must be seen to be evaluated as relative to your motion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RingoKid, posted 07-24-2004 10:15 PM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RingoKid, posted 07-24-2004 10:58 PM sidelined has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 86 (127394)
07-24-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by sidelined
07-24-2004 10:45 PM


oh I see...
no i don't actually because I can't see the inflation horizon of the universe nor the pre bang singularity so what reference is there for any motion at all ???
apart from the obvious fact that things move
Ok I've gone a done it again haven't I ???...shown an absolute ignorance of relative motion and logic
Dr could we have the white jacket over here please ???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by sidelined, posted 07-24-2004 10:45 PM sidelined has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 1005 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 27 of 86 (127407)
07-25-2004 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by sidelined
07-24-2004 4:44 PM


Now do the bodies stay separated from each other or do they fall together? My thinking is that they would stay apart, just as they do in this universe but the question is why? How can they be said to be orbiting each other, in a universe where there is no other point of reference?
Ohhh Now I get your question!
Why don't the two fall into each other?!? Are the two orbiting each other about their barycenter or is the universe orbiting the two about their barycenter.
The only difference between the two orbiting each other and the universe spinning around them is that in the former they stay apart, and in the latter they fall together.
So motion MUST be in relation to space itself or else the two WOULD fall into each other.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 122 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 28 of 86 (127408)
07-25-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NosyNed
07-24-2004 4:04 PM


Re: Two slit experiment
Ned writes:
The dual nature of light (and all matter) is demonstrated experimentally by the two slit experiment.
Not necessarily. Young's experiment only confirmed the wave-like nature of light. However, it gave rise to the concept of field.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 07-24-2004 4:04 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-25-2004 3:20 AM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 31 by RingoKid, posted 07-25-2004 9:05 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4629 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 29 of 86 (127413)
07-25-2004 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by coffee_addict
07-25-2004 2:33 AM


Re: Two slit experiment
The 'field' concept predates Young's 1805 experiments by 300 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by coffee_addict, posted 07-25-2004 2:33 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 122 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 30 of 86 (127415)
07-25-2004 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Eta_Carinae
07-25-2004 3:20 AM


Re: Two slit experiment
Sorry about that, then.
Do you happen to know who first proposed it? Or did it just come out of the blue?

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-25-2004 3:20 AM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Maxwell's Demon, posted 07-25-2004 1:56 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
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