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Author Topic:   Is space flat?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 3 of 28 (297444)
03-22-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purplecorndog
03-22-2006 7:50 PM


Wow, so many new folk. Hi purplecorndog!
space: is it flat or three-dimensional?
3d? Yes, but we don't like to separate it from time, which gives us 4d.
Flat? Well, it depends. Over small distances it is, to a very good approximation, flat. However, as you look on larger length scales you realise (using incredibly sensitve instrumentation) that around the earth, it is not totally flat. On sufficiently large scales the curvature can be quitepronounced, such as the whole universe being possibly curved into a (hyper)sphere, or around a black hole where things appear to curve the wrong way because the curvature is so extreme.
Diagrams I've found while roaming around show a pit, for lack of a better term, in space.
The pit is space. This is a very common misconception with depictions of space(time). The pit shows that space is being stretched and distorted (by some mass such as a planet, star, black hole, etc)
To me, that means that there's a literal fabric.
Yes, in quite a close sense, space(time) is a fabric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purplecorndog, posted 03-22-2006 7:50 PM purplecorndog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by john6zx, posted 01-27-2007 4:44 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 28 (304897)
04-18-2006 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Xeriar
04-17-2006 9:31 PM


This is more of a compression of space, however, rather than curvature into a higher dimension (well, at least as I understand it).
Outside mathematics, it is a common misconception that a "higher dimension" is required for curvature. This is not true. Often a higher dimension is required for us to visualise curvature, e.g. a sphere (such as the surface of a snooker ball) is 2-dimensional, yet for us to appreciate that curavture we require a 3 dimensions in which to view it. The sphere itself requires no such higher dimension.
we only have the WMAP results to go by, which suggest that, at least on the scale of the visible Universe, it is flat to measurement error
Flat here refers to space and not space-time. We say spatially flat to be unambiguous. Space-time on the other hand is very curved.

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 Message 5 by Xeriar, posted 04-17-2006 9:31 PM Xeriar has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 9 of 28 (380523)
01-27-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by john6zx
01-27-2007 4:44 PM


Hi, welcome to EvC
A fabric that can stretch
Yes
things can move through it w/o tearing it
No. 'things' as we think of them are actually ripples and bumps in the fabric. There is only the fabric.
It never wears out? How much would a square foot of it weigh?
Those concepts don't have much meaning
What is this fabric made of?
It just is. Everything that we think of is an aspect of the fabric. The fabric is existence.
How far can it stretch before breaking? What is it stretching into?
By stretching, we simply mean there is a concept of distance associated with pairs of points on the fabric, and distances can grow (or shrink) Thus the fabric doesn't tear nor stretch into something.
How would someone grab this fabric to stretch it?
See above
Has anyone recreated this stretching?
What we think of as gravity is an effect of this stretching. We can see it in astronomical observations. But for us to strecth space-time would require manipulating immense energies - something for the far future.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by zcoder, posted 03-19-2007 9:57 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 11 of 28 (390237)
03-19-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by zcoder
03-19-2007 9:57 AM


I maybe wrong here, but when a object of any mass is in space
the space does not exist where the mass object is.
No 'maybe' about it
A physical object does not preclude space, it just occludes it - i.e. the object hides the background space.
You have to understand that a 'physical object' is just a concentration of excitations of the underlying matter and force quantum fields. These fields overlap the space-time field perfectly - it is not a case of either/or. All the fields exist everywhere.

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Replies to this message:
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