Tired Light

A hopefully apocryphal story:A young man seeking wisdom was told that if he went to EvC Forum he would find many wise scientists in deep discussion. And so he visited EvC Forum and went to the thread with the most recent activity, Tired Light. After a few minutes of reading he decided he'd been misinformed and went elsewhere.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

It has been pointed out to me in other threads, and I find merit in the point, that I and my fellow moderators tolerate worse behavior in evolutionists than Creationists. Could you do me a great favor and make a greater effort to maintain a dispassionate and constructive discourse with someone you find frustrating and wrongheaded. That will often mean patiently reexplaining things. There will be more benefit from this than you might think - Asgara is not alone in having trouble following this, and repetition is helpful.You've drawn the attention of two moderators now, hopefully this convinces you that an adjustment is called for.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Please don't anyone respond in kind to posts violating the Forum Guidelines. Thanks!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I noticed this recently active thread while poking around today and recalled it as a very interesting and very techical discussion. I'm curious what members and lurkers think. Was anyone convinced one way or the other? Did anyone win the "debate"?

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

At EvC Forum we've evolved the tradition where those who know the most and are the most articulate are held to the highest standards. Psychological studies have shown that overconfidence and arrogance go hand in hand with lack of knowledge and skills. The most common offenders in this category are teenage boys. There's no need for those with the most knowledge and skills to display behavior consistent with this group.If you know it, just tell it. Leave out the personal asides. For example, that Lyndon Ashmore didn't know it was made clear less by his inability to tell it than by his perpetual personal asides.By the way, AdminJar noticed that Lyndon had joined even before he made his first post, and he commented to me that Lyndon was known for charging in to a discussion board full bore and then gradually fading away, which is precisely what happened here. From the perspective of judging and assessing a debate, not from any Forum Guidelines standpoint, Lyndon lost the debate because not only was what he was saying shown to be wrong, the longer the debate went on the more simple his errors became, such as near the end when he applied the behavior of electrons in a wire to his space plasma.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Eta in Message 284 and Message 285: While it seems like there should be some emotional satisfaction gained for patiently explaining science to an arrogant and frustrating know-nothing, such as by treating him in a denigrating manner, I'm trying to discourage this. If you cover all the bases on the science side, whether he is blind or hasn't a clue will emerge from the discussion and require no explicit statement.Like I said earlier, EvC Forum is a science site, and the tradition here at EvC Forum is to place the heaviest burden on those most familiar with science. I apologize for inconsistently and unevenly pushing this point, but if you've actually contributed to 150 peer reviewed publications then the standards you should be held to are god-like.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I concede that there is a Pollyanna aspect to what I'm asking. It seems to require being blithely oblivious to what's really going on, and that does seem to be asking too much.I know it seems like purposeful lying, but in most cases it isn't. The religious aren't the only ones capable of fooling themselves, remember N-Rays (Blondlot and N-rays - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com).

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I was actually making a different point. I intended for you to apply my reference to Blondlot and N-Rays to PeaceHarris. I don't think Blondlot, a legitimately gifted scientist, was lying, and I don't think PeaceHarris, a considerably lesser light, is, either.If you're old enough you might recall Tom Lehrer, a Harvard professor of mathematics who moonlighted in coffee houses singing songs of his own composition (Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions). He was once asked in an interview why he didn't do higher mathematics, and his reply was instructive. He said that above a certain point it just stopped making sense, and that he was only able to go so far.This is true for most of us about many things. The significance of principles beyond our grasp is as if they did not exist. Combine this with a preferred viewpoint and people can convince themselves of all kinds of things that aren't supported by the evidence. And combine this with certain personality traits that prevent ever conceding any error, such as Ashmore with his need to appear authoritative, and such as PeaceHarris with his need to appear privy to special insights, and you've got a deadly brew of ignorance.This is the den of iniquity you've entered by participating here, and as one of the privileged priests of science you're expected to move serenely among the lepers casting your pearls about without showing any signs of revulsion or distress.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director