Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Big Bang and Absolute Zero
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 8 of 56 (460795)
03-18-2008 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-18-2008 1:29 PM


Not Exactly on Topic
In this way "space" to me is a misleading term and perhaps should be represented differently. "Space" then becomes a frame of reference tool like a ruler. Space is a dimension used to measure our 3d experience. We do not say the actual miles between to objects are expanding.
Space is represented differently when a serious study of it is done. It is expressed entirely mathematically and time is inseparable. Few want to or can understand it in such a fashion. However, your solution, to use space as a reference tool like a ruler to measure our 3d experience, only adds another layer of misinterpretation. Space is our 3d experience that we measure with clocks and photons.
And we don’t say the actual miles between two objects are expanding because they are contracting. That is why we can fit more of them between the two objects.
Space is a sufficient term. It is space that is expanding.
I'd also like to add, for the sake of the OP, that T=0K has nothing to do with T=0s.

Mournfully

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-18-2008 1:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-19-2008 1:10 PM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 10 of 56 (460877)
03-19-2008 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-19-2008 1:10 PM


We're Gonna' Catch It.
It just depends on which object one wishes to hold as their constant. If I measure space with my yard stick space is expanding. If I measure my yard stick with space my yard stick is contracting. But in no case is the yard stick expanding. So no one would say the miles are expanding.
It could be that I misinterpreted what you meant. If what you meant was that, “We do not say there are an increasing number of miles between the two objects,” then yes, we do.
However, your view seems to be that the box contains space, while it is space that contains your box. Your box is merely a demarcation of a set measure3 and space expanded without regard to the boxes set limits. The two points of space that you had originally used to set the measure of your box have, indeed, moved on. If you reset your box to the new position of the original two points of space the volume of the box would be greater.
Try this: Find eight galaxies, sufficiently distant*, that could form the eight vertices of a cube. Wait 46 million years and the cube will have increased its volume by 1%. Your boxes volume will have expanded as space has expanded because its volume is tied to objects that move in concert with the space they are within.
Space is the name given to that which we experience as up-down, left-right and back-fore. They being three of the four dimensions of space/time. Space is a tripartite axiom as it were. With what other word would one use to explain it that wouldn’t suffer the same problem of comprehension?
Given a large enough chunk of space the mass within it can be considered, for our purposes, homogeneous, tenuous and immaterial. Space is physically expanding, but it does not have mass. Mass is a property of matter.
The space within an object, say a grandfather clock, is expanding right along with the rest of space. If the clock had no tensile strength or self gravity it would be torn apart by the expansion. That is if you could get the clock to resist the cold draft coming down the stair which applies a force umpteen trillion times greater than the force of expansion.
Space/time is warped by the mass contained within it, but time is not a property of mass. A bowling ball warps a trampoline but trampoline is not a property of bowling balls, nor does the bowling ball define the trampoline . And any mass significantly large and dense enough to noticeably interrupt our personal spatial experience has done so by killing us.
The conflict of explanations you experience may be simply that different folks using different methods emphasizing different aspects of a very difficult, multifaceted subject.
I’ll bear with your attempt at comprehension if you’ll bare with mine.
They have threads for this. AbE: A day later and I've just read YOUR thread for this. What, no takers?
*Sufficiently distant would require that they be so far apart that their random motions are dwarfed by the motion caused by the expansion of space.
The Universe is warped on the large scale by the mass contained within it but it’s a detail that we can concern ourselves with after we’ve a general idea of what’s going on.
AbE: I intended "temporal" not "spatial". After all, the Earth interrupts me daily.
Edited by lyx2no, : New evidence falsified one of my cherished positions: I'm not dead.

Kindly
******
Ever eat a pine tree? What are you, stupid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-19-2008 1:10 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-20-2008 12:14 AM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 13 of 56 (460897)
03-20-2008 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-20-2008 12:14 AM


That "if" is not the reality of the situation.
Yeah, I caught that. The “if” was a contingency. Maybe if you had tried it you'd’ve realized that your POV was entirely erroneous. It wasn’t the Universe that got your experiment wrong.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting something again, -· --- -. You established the volume of your box using the distance between “two objects” as your standard. This became your constant by which you compared the Universe. And when it stayed constant you interpreted that as the space it measured staying constant even though your “two objects”, the original standard, “moved apart". Does their moving apart not indicate that the original space would no longer fit into your box? If you don’t allow your box to stretch with the space why should anyone expect it’s volume to increase? It wouldn’t. It was the constant. It did exactly what was required of it: Nothing.
I noticed that you had more words in the post; do they mean anything?
Edited by lyx2no, : Punc.

Kindly
******
Ever eat a pine tree? What are you, stupid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-20-2008 12:14 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 30 of 56 (461274)
03-24-2008 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by bob-bc
03-23-2008 10:45 PM


By Definition
Pleased to meet you, bob-bc:
What other explanation would there be for a uniform cosmic background radiation coming from all directions at once?
How about a theory called the big bang? It’s very popular among people who know the difference between a light year (distance) and a year (time), and who know that when something is “ . curved by the mass of the universe 360 degrees.” It’s heading in the same direction still.
There is nothing in the definition of space about stuff.
A photon absorbed by an electron can be shot right back out without energy lost.
Your (whosever) absorption/emission theory would have a very different signature than what is actually seen.
When we see something happen 7.5 billion light years away that is how far away it was when it happened, not how far away it is when we see it. And it is now 11.6 billion light years away. It’s in the making up of that difference that we get a red shift.
AbE: Gen 2:10
Edited by lyx2no, : I went a bit to far.
Edited by lyx2no, : Clicked the edit button accidentally.

Kindly
******
I thought that was a beautifully subtle shot at me. I'm kind of disappointed that it's not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by bob-bc, posted 03-23-2008 10:45 PM bob-bc has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024