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Author Topic:   The Big Bang and Absolute Zero
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5880 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 6 of 56 (460727)
03-18-2008 1:29 PM


I'd like to mention that one stumbling block to many people is the term "space" when speaking of expansion. I has been for me. "space" is usually thought of as a defined virtual area or a defined empty area. When speaking of the great expansion the "space" that is referred to is not empty space that has things in it. There is no such thing as "empty" space. In this way "space" to me is a misleading term and perhaps should be represented differently. "Space" then becomes a frame of reference tool like a ruler. Space is a dimension used to measure our 3d experience. We do not say the actual miles between to objects are expanding.
So now one has to discuss what actually is expanding as "space" is not a sufficient term to use.
Am I making sense?

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 03-18-2008 1:38 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
 Message 8 by lyx2no, posted 03-18-2008 11:58 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5880 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 9 of 56 (460856)
03-19-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by lyx2no
03-18-2008 11:58 PM


Re: Not Exactly on Topic
And we don’t say the actual miles between two objects are expanding because they are contracting
I have never heard that. Explain this in relation to expansion please.
Space is our 3d experience that we measure with clocks and photons.
I am not seeing that. Within a volume there is a quantity of space.
I place a box defining space between two objects. They move apart. The volume of the box does not change.
For space to expand the space within the box must also expand and therefore the box must expand.
Space is a sufficient term. It is space that is expanding.
My issue is what is meant by "space" There is no such thing as empty
"space" It has physical properties and is therefore a physical thing. There must be a physical process of expansion. "Space" must have mass.
but
Mass is full of "space", Theoretically. That space must also expand. The rate of expansion is slowed because time is slowed by gravity? Because we are relative to it we cannot detect this minute expansion easily?
Gravity retards time. Gravity then defines time. Time is a property of mass? With decreasing mass/gravity, time accelerates?
In reading explanations I find conflicting views on concepts.
The are schools of thought within the accepted framework.
Bear with my attempt at comprehension.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by lyx2no, posted 03-18-2008 11:58 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5880 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 11 of 56 (460893)
03-20-2008 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by lyx2no
03-19-2008 7:15 PM


Re: We're Gonna' Catch It.
while it is space that contains your box
If you reset your box to the new position of the original two points of space the volume of the box would be greater.
That "if" is not the reality of the situation.
"Space/time is warped by the mass contained within it, but time is not a property of mass. A bowling ball warps a trampoline but trampoline is not a property of bowling balls, nor does the bowling ball define the trampoline"
When you speak of space/time I see it as an inchpound. there is no actual inchpound.
What illustrates that time is an independent physical thing to be warped? So it is not "time" that is slowed but physical interaction of mass. Time just represents that physical happening. Without mass time would not exist or pass infinitely fast? Without reference time would be meaningless. More mass, slower time. less mass faster time.
You can change the speed of physical interaction with a change in mass. You cannot change mass by changing time. That requires acceleration.
Space has no mass? Definitively? I don't buy that. Time and again massless "particles" have been found to have mass. "Space" is an ocean of photons and neutrinos and what else we do not know yet. It also has physical properties. Physical properties represent physical things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by lyx2no, posted 03-19-2008 7:15 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 03-20-2008 12:43 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5880 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 14 of 56 (460959)
03-20-2008 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
03-20-2008 12:43 AM


Re: We're Gonna' Catch It.
"Space is not composed of anything possessing mass. Not neutrinos, not photons. You're wrong. Period."
There currently is no proof that is the case.
When we speak of the distance between two objects, the distance is figurative. It is not a thing.
The nature of what is expanding is not yet clear.
Space has properties of energy. Then it has mass.
We simply do not have the ability to detect it yet.
I hear time and again that nothing is actually composed of energy
Son Goku and others chant that mantra. It is as figurative as treating
space as an expanding thing with no substance.
We used to thing air was "empty"
For space to exist and have no mass it cannot be physical. That does not follow. Nothing is "not physical" Everything is made of something.
If black holes can be infinitely dense then "space" can be infinitely
lacking density and still be physical.
There is no reason to believe the space between the nucleus of an atom and it's electrons is any different than that between galaxy clusters.
Mass retards the speed of time. Mass is then an island of "slowed experience".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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