Justification For Evolution Within Creation

Len Lisenbee writes:

quote:

---

Furthermore, I stated that time as we know and understand it did not exist before Genesis, mainly because the earth had not been created.

---

But that is directly contradicted by the physical evidence.The universe is about 14 billion years old. The earth is only about 4 billion years old.Ergo, the universe was around long before the earth.And if the universe was around, then time was around.Ergo, time could quite easily be around before the earth.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Len Lisenbee writes:

quote:

---

Do you think the plagues of Egypt were just events happening randomly?

---

What makes you think the plagues of Egypt actually happened? We can't find any evidence they did.All you've done is replace one assumption (god exists) with another (the plagues of Egypt happened). Where is your evidence?

quote:

---

After all, the Jewish scribes observed them, experienced them, and wrote about them.

---

Incorrect.The only evidence we have for them comes from the Old Testament. Surely the death of all the firstborn would have been recorded somewhere on an obelisk.

quote:

---

The Red Sea parted on command

---

Says who? The people who have a vested interest in convincing you that it did? Since when did that become a trustworthy source?If you're going to assert that the Red Sea parted, you need to come up with a source that isn't intimately tied into the story.

quote:

---

For forty years the Jews followed a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night.

---

Says who? You're doing nothing but using a single source that has a vested interest in trying to get you to believe it.We need a source that is not the Bible.

quote:

---

Remember that He foretold each and every event before it occurred.

---

Incorrect. None of the prophesies put forward in the Bible have come true.

quote:

---

So, based on all of this proof

---

What proof? If I tell you that god told me that I will have corn flakes for breakfast tomorrow and I do, that is evidence for god? Don't you think a better source would be somebody who is not me and has no connection to me?

quote:

---

If, however, you think there is not enough proof, or that these miracles were simply the various figments of some Jew's imagination, or that there is no physical proof "today" that they actually occurred as recorded in scripture, then you cannot be convinced that God exists.

---

Incorrect.You assume that the only god that could possibly exist is the one described in your book.Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way that you think?

quote:

---

And, most importantly, He and His appointed will one day stand in judgement of you and me. There is absolutely nothing either of us can do to avoid that ultimate and final judgement. If we do not measure up to His standards, (His standards alone) then we will be subjected to unbelievable torment for the rest of eternity, and all because we didn't measure up to those very simple standards. And, what will make that torment even worse is that we will be able to see Heaven from our place of torment. We will know that we could have ended up there, in eternal joy, if we had only believed a little differently while living here on earth. This was (and for now still is) our test. Will we pass it? Or, will we fail miserably? That choice is ours to make.

---

BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Len Lisenbee. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, Len Lisenbee has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Len Lisenbee gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the one you worship, did you?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Len Lisenbee responds to me:

quote:

---

I'm truly surprised, and more than a bit disappointed, that you guys didn't use the ages old argument that, since God created everything, then He also created evil.

---

It didn't have anything to do with your commentary, so why bring it up? That would be a strawman.Besides, the Bible directly sys that god creates evil. Who said that god cannot create evil? You? Why should we believe you when the Bible says differently?Exodus 32:14: And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.Judges 9:23: Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:1 Samuel 18:10: And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.2 Chronicles 18:22: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.And then there's this big one that is crystal clear:Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

quote:

---

There is scientific proof of the "plagues" that struck Egypt.

---

Where? You need to back up your assertions. Your say so is not sufficient. Do you have a journal article that we might reference?

quote:

---

And, there is scientific proof that the first born of Israel were ordered slain and the firstborn of Egypt died.

---

Where? You need to back up your assertions. Your say so is not sufficient. Do you have any sort of reference we could use to verify this claim?

quote:

---

That was all translated long ago in the 60's.

---

What was? Are you saying there was some sort of obelisk that indicated such? Which obelisk? Where? From what dynasty? Do you have any reference that we can look up or do we simply need to take your word for it?

quote:

---

As for your Greek gods, my God tells us there is no god like Him.

---

But they say the same thing about yours. Why should anybody believe you over them?After all, we found Troy. And it was sacked. And we've been able to trace the route of Odysseus. So since the Iliad and the Odyssey are so filled with archaeological evidence, why should anybody doubt them?

quote:

---

You continue to believe as you do, and I will do the same. And one day, after time is no more for either of us, I will prove you wrong.

---

BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Len Lisenbee. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, Len Lisenbee has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Len Lisenbee gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!