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Author Topic:   How did Noah deal with worms?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 113 (130511)
08-04-2004 10:26 PM


In an unrelated thread Pink Sasquatch noted that the majority of life on earth reproduces asexualy, got me thinking...
What did Noah do about annalids, nematodes, tapeworms, et al. ? Most worms aint gonna survive under thousands of feet of watter. Many of them live in only certain environments. Earthworms are very crussial to maintaining healthy soil and we all know they can't live under water. Ever seen what happens when it rains just a little? Little guys are crawlin all over the place.
Furthermore most worms are asexual as far as I know, Noah couldn't possibly have gatherd a male and female of these. So what did he do?
Finally, many worms are parasitic. Tapeworms, liver flukes, heart worm, etc. How did Noah bring these along? Did someone have to voluntaraly infect themselves?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Adminnemooseus, posted 08-04-2004 11:17 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 19 by coffee_addict, posted 08-05-2004 1:28 PM Yaro has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 4 of 113 (130526)
08-04-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Adminnemooseus
08-04-2004 11:17 PM


Re: Needs better title
Ummm....
Noahs Ark and Vermiculture
Or,
How did Noah deal with worms
Take your pick
{"How did Noah deal with worms?" is new title - AM}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-04-2004 10:31 PM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 7 of 113 (130535)
08-05-2004 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by johnfolton
08-05-2004 12:07 AM


A little on Earthworms
whatever,
I think I should let you know a bit about earthworms.
Earthworms live underground by pushing dirt thrugh their digestive system, filtering out the nutrients, and moving on. They are simple creatures and though they spend most of their time underground they need oxygen to live. Earthworms will not survive in direct sunlight, or in aquatic conditions since there is not enugh oxygen to absobe.
Anyway, Earthworms have a wide range of teritory, and they cover alot of ground in a day. Lots of soil is processed and they are esential to a healthy garden since they ventilate the ground and allow it to be permiated by rainfall.
To suggest that enugh soil was floating on the surface to both:
a) shelter them from the sun
b) keep them fed and out of waterlogged conditions
Would mean that you would litteraly have a huge chunck of dry earth floating on the surface. Like some kind of floating lawn.
I don't belive this is a possibility.

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 13 of 113 (130636)
08-05-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by johnfolton
08-05-2004 10:10 AM


Earthworms like moisture, yes, but not mud. Furthermore, could the conditions you suggest have held up for over a year?
Besides, earthworms live in the top 6" of soil. That's their ideal habitat. They burrow all over the place in this soil and that's how they get by.
Was there at last six inches worth of topsoil floating on the surface of the ocean during Noahs time?

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 Message 14 by johnfolton, posted 08-05-2004 10:42 AM Yaro has replied
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 16 of 113 (130685)
08-05-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by johnfolton
08-05-2004 10:42 AM


Yaro, Earthworms don't need soil, they can survive eating decayed organics, grass, as the rain washed the muds into the waters
What part of the name EARTH-Worm don't you get?
They live on soil, not mud. They need soil as shelter as well as food. Their digestive system is made to process soil, filter out nutrients, and collect grit in a crop (much like birds do). They need soil by definition!
Loose debris floating on the ocean surface just isn't going to cut it. You need a nice block of at least 6" of topsoil to support a good amount of earthworms.
I'm not sure about their larvae, if they could survive within an aquatic environment, till conditions were right to hatch, but that probably explains how the insects survived, perhap a bearing on earthworms multiplying, and how these forms of life likely repopulated the earth, after the biblical deluge.
From: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00508.htm
"Earthworms must mate to reproduce, even though one earthworm contains both male and female reproductive organs. Eggs are formed in a slime tube that slips over the worm's head and forms a cocoon or capsule that incubates them. Eggs develop into tiny worms in the cocoon and crawl out through one end when ready to emerge. Cocoons vary in size and shape and are about 1/25 to 1/3 inch long. Some fast-maturing worms mature three to four months after hatching and will start their breeding cycle. Eggs are laid on top of the ground at one-month intervals, with each egg capsule containing 5 to 15 baby worms. If starting with two breeder beds, the crop will be ready for harvesting in about five months and continuing thereafter with proper care. Nightcrawlers are difficult to impossible to raise in homemade containers. Most resort to picking these worms from lawns, gardens and orchards for storing and future use. Worms live 10 to 15 years."
The eggs are laid above the ground, only incubate for a few months, and then spawn 10-15 baby worms. How could these eggs survive more than a year submerged?
Another issue is PH. Earthworms are delicate creatures and require a stable chemical environment as well. Slight variation in Soil PH can kill earthworms. How are they going to survive in salt water satturated debris?
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-05-2004 11:28 AM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 20 of 113 (130722)
08-05-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by coffee_addict
08-05-2004 1:28 PM


Ya Tapeworms maybe, but waht about the other parsites?

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 22 of 113 (130729)
08-05-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-05-2004 2:26 PM


errp... heheh
I meant parasitic worms.
Many parasitic worms cause much more than a little discomfort and the occasional freaky BM. Here are a few parasitic worms that Noah and co. had to be carrying around:
Wuchereria bancroft - elephantiasis
Flukes - many of which can cause failure of major organs such as liver flukes
Taenia solium - the prok tapeworm (though not only found in pork). A parasite that when ingested has a bad habit of having its tiny babys invade the bloodstream. this can cause them to mature in the heart where they can cause heart-attacks by blocking arteries, Lungs, causing Lung colapse, or even in the brain causing strokes.
Where Noah carrying these things along with them?
Edited: I don't think baby worms are considered larva. They hatch from eggs and grow from there. There is no metamorphasis from an intermediary stage.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-05-2004 01:45 PM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 28 of 113 (130964)
08-06-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by johnfolton
08-06-2004 1:35 AM


Re:
the debris pressing together would of provided shelter the earth worms from the rain, within the grass organics as food, given its not as a glass jar because the water would be draining through the debris, it all seems to be quite a perfect moist highly oxygenated environment for growing earthworms
Well, Can you explain how a raft of topsoil driftend on the ocean for a whole year?
Earthworms will not survive in loose, floating, debris. Let alone debris that are saturated in Salt Watter.
Even if the rain were freashwatter, the vast majority of the water on earth (oceans) are salt watter. Unfortunetly duping a ton of rain on the world would invariably mix the freshwater and saltwater to the point where there was only salt watter.
This water would kill the earthworms.

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Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 32 of 113 (131033)
08-06-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by johnfolton
08-06-2004 12:47 PM


This article said earthworms live on the sandy bottoms of lakes, maybe he didn't mean earthworms, but it also said as summer algae blooms die offs decreased the oxygen levels deplete killing off some of the these oxygen dependent micro-organisms. Like what is an earth worm doing on the bottom of a lake, likely absorbing oxygen, feeding on organics, apparently earthworms have an ability to adapt, to the different aerobic environments, etc...
I looked into this. There are three major species of earthworms which are grouped into three distinct classes:
EPIGEIC (surface dwelling) types live at the surface in freshly decaying plant or animal residues.
ENDOGEIC types live within the soil and ingest soil to extract nutrition from degraded organic matter.
ANECIC types burrow deep in the soil but come to the surface at night to forage for freshly decaying residues.
from: http://users.dragnet.com.au/~lindah/awga/behav.html
I suppose I am more concerned with the EPIGENIC variety. These don't live under watter at all and by definition live on the looser, nutrient rich, topsoil.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-06-2004 02:07 PM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 35 of 113 (131074)
08-06-2004 6:11 PM


Some Clarification on Earthworm Biology
I googled this quote from another fourm:
Often people think that the reason worms crawl out on the sidewalk when it rains is to avoid drowning when their holes fill with water. A few months ago, after the author of an article in Discover magazine made a similar claim, a scientist who studied worms wrote in to say worms can live underwater as well as in the dirt. They don't breathe as we do but get oxygen in some way that makes drowning an impossibility. He said the reason they come out was mating.
I coroborated the post by finding a site hosted at a university with similar data. Earthworms indeed can live under fresh water, however from what little I could find Earthworms will die when exposed to to much salt or acidity.
All the refrences I could find about earthworms in water were earthworms in lakebeds and other freshwater sources.
There is one species of worm that is found in the salt water oceans called the salt water bloodworm.
In any case, I conceed that Earthworms could have survived underwater in shallow freshwater conditions, in well oxyginated waters.
However, I don't think the "soil raft hypothesis" holds any watter
Anyway, whatever, you were right on this point. But I would still contend that once the rain and ocean mixed there would be too much salt for the worms to survive.

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6526 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 36 of 113 (131075)
08-06-2004 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by johnfolton
08-06-2004 6:10 PM


hehe, wow, we posted at the same time. Read above post.

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