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Author Topic:   There are easy creationist answers to problems evolutionists pose
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 29 of 111 (885255)
03-30-2021 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
03-28-2021 7:40 PM


Beginning Participation As Phat
MTW writes:
I have reported message 4 to adminphat in the hopes that he might be more objective since he isn't an anti-theist admin.
I think if there are any more personal attacks from the Pauls, a good standard would be to ban them for 14 days. Especially AZPaul.
PaulK is slightly more subtle in his character-assassination technique but AZPaul is always a crude person generally.
I suspect most posters are just likely to be trolls that have been given a free pass to just troll any creationist that stops by.
To be honest, Mikey, I actually did suspend AZPaul3 overnight and lifted the suspension this morning after re-reading the thread.
I have not watched you moderate too often over at Evolution Fairytale Forum, but I am looking now as I compile this reply. I also respect the members at EvC Forum even if I disagree with them so I expect that you wont do a hit and run and prove jar right. I think I will now participate in this thread and keep AdminPhat back home in the whine cellar.
Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 03-28-2021 7:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2021 11:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 31 of 111 (885258)
03-30-2021 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by dwise1
03-30-2021 11:33 AM


I would call myself a Cosmological Creationist
As you know, I am not a creationist in the same manner as Mike and most Biblical Creationists are. I believe that there most definitely *is* a Creator of all seen and unseen Who is in essence the ground of all being and Who is the Source of all creativity, wisdom, and dare I say purpose for all living things. I respect the Bible as more than a human-authored book, though to be honest I find some of the stories clearly lacking what one would consider divine inspiration.
By the way, do you consider yourself a pessimist? I believe that the Just live by Faith. I believe in a better future and that humans can and will get stronger...not weaker. Where I differ from most of you is that I believe that through Communion with the Holy Spirit this becomes possible. I am optimistic that God wants a communion of creative thought with humanity, and it is the act of serving rather than ruling that will get us where we need to be. (which is where He wants us to be as well)
Edited by Phat, : subtitle

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2021 11:33 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2021 3:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 34 by nwr, posted 03-30-2021 3:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 32 of 111 (885259)
03-30-2021 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by dwise1
03-30-2021 10:32 AM


dwise1 shows why he is a wise one
I was just thinking. So you have been discussing/debating creationism for 35 years plus! Thats something! What I like about your approach is your descriptive commentaries about feelings, events, and scenes where you grew up. That coupled with your professional career and the many things which you had your hand in getting accomplished. It was men like you that built America.
That being said, I respect honesty. Even drunken blunt honesty (to a degree,mind you) and I trust that biblical creationism frustrates you because you perceive so much of it as dishonest. I dislike being called dishonest and charged with being a liar, so I try extra hard to review what I post and ask myself if I am being honest.
If I were to break it all down, I think I believe in both evolution and creativity.
I believe that only an honest and purposeful (as opposed to mindless and random) creative force/flow/Creator actually creates anything that would be labled as good.|
(And God saw that it was good.)
Granted the Bible is human-centric. What do they call it in regards to God having human characteristics? Anthropomorphic? Thus I pray about this one. I believe that prayer and meditation can lead to wise answers if one is honest about what they receive.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2021 10:32 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 39 of 111 (885278)
03-31-2021 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by dwise1
03-30-2021 10:48 PM


Already Convinced
dwise1 writes:
Decades ago on a different forum I responded to a creationist making that same tired old creationist claim with "why do you persist in in making such unconvincing claims?" Unable to respond to the rest of my disemboweling response to his claim, he replied with "you only think them unconvincing because you are not yet convinced yourself."
That was an epiphany for me about how creationists think. They are only convinced by their arguments, even the stupidest ones, because they are already convinced. That inspired my own still-unfinished page, Fundamental Differences Between Scientists and Creationists.
I see myself in your argument. To be honest, I am convinced that God exists, and was to a lesser degree convinced that demons existed based on my personal experience (though biased). Finally, when I heard Isaiah Saldivar and knew a couple of people who knew him personally, I judged him to be sincere and not a charletan and he talked about the supernatural and the events that occurred. I was at this point convinced of the possible reality of such a realm/event. You all may think im gullible, but I can read a person and know when they are lying and when they are truthful or believe themselves to be truthful.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2021 10:48 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 04-01-2021 7:07 AM Phat has replied
 Message 41 by dwise1, posted 04-01-2021 3:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 50 of 111 (885384)
04-10-2021 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
04-01-2021 7:07 AM


Re: Already Convinced
jar writes:
As long as you continue to place SOURCE over content and BELIEF over evidence you will continue to be unable to make reasoned arguments.
Before I comment, I'm going to go get out my old copy of Language In Thought & Action and read about SOURCE vs CONTENT in the original argument. I have never considered your whole mantra of "throwing God away" nor your oft repeated point that there is no evidence that the Bible is anything more than stories to be reasoned arguments on behalf of Jesus.
As dwise1 says and which I now acknowledge, I am already convinced that I am right and will dig in my heels defending SOURCE. After all, why would I even pray were it not to connect to SOURCE? Do you honestly think that GOD simply expects ME to figure it all out? (Yes, I know you do and will ask me what the EVIDENCE shows.) And its why you and I have argued here at EvC for 17 years and the same tired argument resurfaces.
And David,(dwise1) I DO find your information potentially fascinating except that it challenges my internal argument. jar insists I throw God away. But I am not a scientist. I do not attempt to falsify my beliefs.
For the sake of argument, however, I will think about these things for the next post.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 04-01-2021 7:07 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 51 of 111 (885385)
04-10-2021 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Sarah Bellum
04-10-2021 10:05 AM


Believers/Apologists vs Creationists
Sarah Bellum writes:
There's quite a variety of religious beliefs.
There are those who think a "Creator" set off the Big Bang a few billion years ago and let the natural laws that he (it's always he isn't it?) devised take their natural course.
That's kinda me. Oh, and the reason GOD is always a "He" apart from the patriarchal culture of that time is simply that Jesus is a He. Not a She. No offense, Sarah. I respect women more every year...but I will admit I have a way to go.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Sarah Bellum, posted 04-10-2021 10:05 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by dwise1, posted 04-10-2021 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 59 by Sarah Bellum, posted 04-12-2021 6:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 52 of 111 (885386)
04-10-2021 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
04-08-2021 4:03 PM


Re: Where is WookieeB?
AZ writes:
He's praying for guidance. Some demon named dwise1 has him by the brain and he needs to be cleansed.
I just realized that this could apply to me as well, though I dont see dwise1 as being a demon. At worst, he is only guilty of labeling me a lying creationist scum. But then again, I don't think I knowingly lie. I also never tried to defend Biblical Creationism like our old sister Faith did. And I'm a bit mad at Mike. (MTW) I tried to defend him and he goes and runs off. As for the Wookie, perhaps the old Millennium Falcon got refurbished and he got lost in space. Hans Solo has yet to make an appearance with him.
(reads further and edits post...)
dwise1 writes:
Therefore a simple operational definition of "creationist" would be one who practices or supports creationism. So what is creationism? It is a movement or position of opposing evolution for religious reasons basic on the mistaken idea that Divine Creation and evolution are somehow mutually exclusive. General belief in Divine Creation does not involve rejection of specific science like evolution, so that would not be the defining characteristic needed to identify a "creationist". What would be the defining characteristic of a "creationist" in this context would be one's involvement with creationism. That is to say that since not all believers in Divine Creation would also practice creationism, then they would not be classified as "creationists" in our discussions -- indeed, most believers would not be creationists, but rather would be labeled by creationists as "atheistic evolutionists".
As I have said before, I am not a Biblical Creationist. I am more of a Cosmological Creationist only in that I believe God was involved in starting it all...including the whole good vs evil scenario. I realize there is controversy in that line of belief.
Edited by Phat, : spelling...as usual.

Edited by Phat, : just saw dwise1's comment and added it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2021 4:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2021 9:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 53 of 111 (885388)
04-10-2021 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by FLRW
03-30-2021 4:23 PM


Tolstoy
Do me a favor and link me up to more about Tolstoy. I never knew as much bout him as you have already said. I just liked the quote.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by FLRW, posted 03-30-2021 4:23 PM FLRW has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 54 of 111 (885389)
04-10-2021 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
03-28-2021 7:12 PM


Calling The Lords Servant
MTW writes:
You tend to IMPLY things about the person FAR TOO MUCH, Paul, most likely because you haven't the intelligence to win in a toe-to-toe debate so you have to fall back on the use of flimsy rhetoric instead.
Your post was about as difficult to deal with as eating cake.
Keep stating false and evil things about the Lord's servant, for your time grows ever shorter, so as they say, "enjoy it while it lasts".
First off, I wont take sides here.
I will mention Forum Guidelines and remind all of us to respect the opponent and focus on the argument. And yes, Mike, you must present all of the arguments again in a topic which YOU wanted promoted. GET BACK OVER HERE!
I believe that you have some intelligence and respect you more than jar does...but you simply can't run away. You make me (and yourself) look bad. It is easy to hide out at Evolution Fairy tales where you are the administrator and control the arguments. I want you to address this topic with our gifted yet rude peanut gallery. Surely our Lord would expect nothing less from His servant.
Edited by Phat, : added features

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 03-28-2021 7:12 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2021 1:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 111 (885718)
04-24-2021 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by WookieeB
04-23-2021 2:31 AM


Re: Already Convinced
WookieB,addressing dwise1 writes:
Normally, I would think you're exaggerating here. But via all your posts and tone, I now doubt it.
So, per your definition in Message 72, "Within the context of this forum, creationists are opponents of "evolution"". That means opposing evolution == creationist. And per you, "creationists never ever address evolution nor ever present any evidence against evolution" (which you even bolded)" We already agreed that scientific evidence is the only valid kind. So if opposing evolution == creationist and creationists never ...present any evidence against evolution, then it results in what I effectively noted that according to you, "by default there can be no scientific evidence against evolution".
You say that it is possible to fight evolution honestly and truthfully, but your premises actually make that impossible. Whenever any even begins to try to put up a fight, you automatically categorize them as creationists, which you have a priori already determined is a category group that cannot present valid evidence.
From my perspective, dwise1 is arguing that creationists y definition are lying about the science that they collectively create and challenging established science, which is more mainstream. Though one could argue that science-at-large is continually evolving and growing new theories and directions, dwise1 sees the Creation Institute and perhaps AiG as dishonest. Am I right, David?
WookieB writes:
Oh, and by the way, in case you haven't figured it out yet.....
I'm not a creationist.
So just out of curiosity...are you a believer?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by WookieeB, posted 04-23-2021 2:31 AM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 12:09 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 83 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 88 by WookieeB, posted 04-30-2021 9:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 78 of 111 (885719)
04-24-2021 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
04-24-2021 6:13 AM


Re: Already Convinced
PaulK writes:
I would assert that anyone who thinks that they conclude divine creation based in scientific evidence is either deceived or lying.
I would agree. Its the same thing as concluding that GOD is based on scientific evidence. Which I think is what motivates some of us. We seek to validate our Creator through objective evidence and we just cant do it.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 04-24-2021 6:13 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16557
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 91 of 111 (885984)
05-01-2021 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by WookieeB
04-30-2021 9:05 PM


Re: Already Convinced
WookieB writes:
And that is where the problems started. AZPaul3 mischaracterized my question and assumed that I was talking about a particular group, and then applied a status that was not germane to the question I was asking. For some reason, dwise1 picked up the false equivalency and ran with it, while also piling on unsupported other accusations. He also added some additional premises that conflicted with his prior statements.
I responded with Message 70, which is sufficient an answer itself. I do not need to cut/paste it again. Effectively, dwise1 does not appear to understand logic, nor does he seem to recall what he posted before. Because he is so obviously confused, his only recourse is to lash out with unsupported accusations against me. So let’s look at a few of them….
I see your argument but dont fully agree. Which is fine. Iron sharpens Iron. But you did not answer my question. WookieB, are you a believer in Jesus Christ? Being honest with this answer helps me to respond both to you and your critics. Reality is not always rational or logical.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by WookieeB, posted 04-30-2021 9:05 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by WookieeB, posted 05-01-2021 5:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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