The Brand New Birther Thread

I don't think that your hatred of Obama is due to racism, Faith. I think it has a lot to do with your love of hate, and your desire to destroy freedom in the U.S. Of course you will happily embrace any accusation - no matter how baseless if it is directed at anyone you hate. As we have seen.Cruz, of course is a Republican so of course the Right would not apply the same criteria to him. Double standards are endemic to the Right, because their strongest guiding principle is getting what they want and they have no interest in fairness or justice.According to the Constitution the Supreme Court determines the interpretation of the Constitution. If your argument is based purely on your interpretation - without reference to past Court decisions then you have not done the research. And if you don't know that much then you really haven't adequately considered the matter.Finally, you should realise that a court case is only dismissed as frivolous if the judge determines that it has no chance of success. It may be that those bringing the case failed because they were incompetent in other respects - but that hardly gives us cause to think that their assessment of the evidence is any good, and if there was a real case why wouldn't somebody competent bring it ? Surely the establishment Republicans could have done it.

The other point, of course, is to deny the legitimacy of the election. I have no doubt that racism is in the mix, but many on the Right want an exclusive lock on power and will not accept defeat.And that is how we know that the Right presents the real threat of a Facist tyranny in the U.S.

Deny the legitimacy of the election by claiming that the winning candidate was ineligible.Ignore it when the same rule would eliminate their favoured candidate because only the results matter to them. The reasoning is just an excuse.It's not hard to understand.

There is no rule other than the one in their heads, and I have already explained why they used it.

Obviously they can't - or more likely don't care to - distinguish between the actual law and the law they've made up.And as for the whole "Muslim" business, well they mostly hate Mslims so to them it's a smear. It seems rather redundant to ask why they would try to smear Obama. It's what they do.

Oh, and here (PDF) is a case where evidence was presented. And rejected as worthless.

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I have to answer personal accusations again just for the record. I don't HATE Obama, what I hate is Marxism, Anti-Americanism, and other destructive totalitarian ideologies, and Obama happens to be both a Marxist and a Muslim, Islam being a totalitarian ideology.

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I submit that your hate is the only reason you believe any of those "reasons".

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In any case I think there's quite enough genuine evidence against Obama to prove he was born in Kenya.

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Then show us the actual evidence. You haven't exactly come up with much so far. And the newspaper announcement of the birth is rather good evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. I haven't seen anything to match that from the other side.

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As I recall I read a defense of Cruz as eligible despite his Canadian citizenship so I stopped worrying about it. Yes I might not have been as ready if someone says the same about Obama because I know Obama to be a Marxist out to undermine America, whereas I know Cruz has America's interests at heart.

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And there we have an example where interpretation of the law is influenced by the desired result. Thank you. Of course it is completely wrong, because your opinion of who would be the better President is utterly irrelevant to the eligibility requirements.

And I've already said in - this thread - that I don't believe that you are a racist.However, your alleged reasons for your prejudice against Obama are in fact just more examples of your prejudice against Obama. So that confession is pretty incomplete.

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The prejudice was based on all the stuff that had already come out about Obama's foreign birth, not just some reaction I personally have to the man

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But foreign birth doesn't distinguish Obama from Cruz. The only relevant distinction I know is that there were questions about whether Cruz's mother was a U.S. Citizen at the time of his birth.

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But also of course the reasons I gave, which there shouldn't be any reason to doubt

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Other than the fact that they are rather obviously false.

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Why would I have anything against him except for his political views?

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Isn't that my point ? That you are consumed with hate for him because he was a Presidential candidate for the Democratic Party ?

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Why do you guys on the Left have this NEED to smear your opponents with hidden motives you can't prove?

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I'd say that it is proven that your motives are not what you claimed. And let me point out that you are the one repeating smears here. What is your motivation for that ?And your extended list is all about past associations which are hardly good reasons. Certainly no proof - or even good evidence - that Obama really is a Marxist.The only real point is the vague claim that Obama "favours Muslims in many ways". And you don't even indicate that any of these ways are valid reasons to, say, consider him a Muslim as you claim - or even grounds for your resentment.Are we really to believe that you pick out random people and believe every smear about them, while being highly sceptical of better supported claims about others ? Surely it is hardly unreasonable to think that you do have a reason - and you are certainly not saying what that reason is.

You're still upset that you can't successfully convert Muslims by force ?

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But the documents that have been offered from Obama's side have all sorts of problems on them too. I hate to bring it up because I really don't want to have to go through all that again

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They are certainly less problematic and with better provenance than those you have used.

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What about the publisher of his book, or his agent or whoever she was, who wrote in a blurb to the book that he was born in Kenya?

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That isn't exactly great evidence. And if it is the best you have - as it seems to be - then you haven't got a worthwhile case.

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Same thing as with the grandmother: it takes weird rationalizations to dispense with both of those

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She says Obama was born in Hawaii.

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And the mailman's testimony? Was that a hoax too? He said Bill Ayers' wife, don't remember her name, had talked glowingly about their foreign exchange student, or words to that effect, and then he met him on one of his deliveries and he told him he was going to be President of the US some day. Just the fact that he was identified as foreign is enough without the strange "prophecy" but I have no reason to doubt the prophecy either yet.

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From Wikipedia it appears that Obama was already teaching at the time he first met Ayers. So it seems unlikely that he would be described as a "foreign exchange student".

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Ya know, Paul, I have a hard time following all your convoluted paranoid accusations of me. They make no sense. They reveal nothing about me but suggest loads of dark things about your own mentality, beyond my fathoming.

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The logic is simple.If Muslims are threatened with the choice of conversion or death they can pretend to convert.This means that you cannot successfully convert Muslims by force.You object to it.If you aren't interested in converting Muslims by force, why would it even be relevant?

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The point was that Obama's foreign birth had been made a big issue for some time and was hotly contested on the level of facts.

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And that is not a relevant fact. If being born out of the country is sufficient to disqualify Obama as President then it also disqualifies Cruz. The fact that the claims are contested does not justify changing the criteria for Obama and it is absurd to even suggest that it does.And I would point out that if the claims were a false attempt to paint Obama as "foreign" surely they would be disputed.

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As I said I have a terrible time understanding your weird thinking about all this. I have no interest in converting anyone "by force," it's utterly alien to the Christian mindset

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So why are you objecting to a doctrine that only comes into play if forcible conversion is on the table ?

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Why would what be relevant? Their lying?

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Since lying is only sanctioned in extreme circumstances - and even then only held to be forgivable - I do worry about why you think it could be relevant.

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I thought this came up because of the post about how Obama couldn't be a Muslim because he behaves like an infidel.

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Which is certainly not sanctioned by Islam - unless you think that there is a Republican Death Squad waiting to kill him the moment he eats a halal kebab or something equally absurd.

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Obama's behavior wouldn't be the response to attempts to convert him, it would be a deceit to make it possible for him to become President in an atmosphere understood to be alien to Islam. It isn't just the "threat" of conversion that causes the deceit, it's anything considered to be important to further the causes of Islam.

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So where is it sanctioned that one can ignore all the Pillars of Islam for decades to obtain power, and what has Obama actually done with that power that would make it worthwhile ?