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Author Topic:   Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 95 of 175 (713885)
12-17-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
12-17-2013 12:51 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Why is freewill basically a joke?
Modern neuroscience is actually demonstrating that the notion of free will may actually be somewhat of an illusion.
With regards to scripture, what is interesting is that god is actually undermining the whole notion of free will. He indicated he provided a sense of autonomy to his creation but at the same time gave instructions for how they should behave. That in and of itself indicates that free will, as denoted by the Bible is also not truly 'free'.
One thing to note is the whole concept of 'god's plan'. If one ascribes to that notion, that brings up your movie analogy. I also like to use the concept of a video game.
As a player of the game, it appears as though my character has 'free will'. I have (mostly) freedom of movement and can adjust tactics accordingly to achieve an objective. But ultimately, I am beholden to the script; i.e. the plan. As such, I can never truly experience free will since I am actually a slave to the programming of the game. The same is true in the case of 'god's plan'.

"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 97 of 175 (713941)
12-18-2013 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Stile
12-17-2013 1:05 PM


Re: The bringer of Balance is usually Biased
if God wanted us to choose Him freely, why send us the Bible or His Son at all? That doesn't seem to be a "free choice" it seems to be God stacking the deck in His favour
Precisely. You can go one further and listen to individuals who indicate that god 'is watching out for them' or 'will help them in a time of need'. Once again, this demonstrates that god is willing to intervene to achieve his goal. And again, that undermines free will.
Like Star Wars (and pretty much any other movie dealing with the concept).
"Bringing balance to the force" apparently means that the good guys win and the bad guys are defeated.
And that archetype exists in the Bible as well. Evil is 'defeated' in the end. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings saga was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing and you can see signs of that in his writings. The 'good' characters fighting the uber evil Sauron.
P.S. Nice to meet another fellow Canadian by the way. I live in the USA now but I grew up in Southern, Ontario near Lake Erie.

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 104 of 175 (714033)
12-19-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2013 12:05 PM


Re: The bringer of Balance is usually Biased
For Star Wars, the Force was "balanced" when it was in its natural state before the Dark Side came and corrupted it.
Allegorically, this is also what happens in Genesis. Humans live in paradise before the fall, when evil is introduced to them. Although arguably, evil already existed, but had yet to manifest for mankind.
Its not that there's a pile of good force on one side and the dark side on the other. The Force is the whole scale, it gets out of balance when you start piling shit on it.
Yah, but Sith Lightning is cool!

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 112 of 175 (714085)
12-19-2013 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Stile
12-19-2013 2:47 PM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
Seems plausible. But still off somewhat to me, though. This seems to imply that before the Dark Side rose up... there was no Light Side (good side)... did everyone just walk around in states of neutrality?
What is interesting, from a Star Wars canon standpoint, is that interpretations of the light side and dark side differ. Some consider both to be two separate energy sources, with distinct properties. Others consider there to be one ubiquitous 'Force' and how one manifests their power ultimately denotes whether they are 'touched' by the light or dark side.
It somewhat reminds me of how individuals harness the powers provided by scientific discovery. Electromagnetic forces for example can be used to create motors, power homes over great distances, etc. They can also be used to electrocute someone. It comes down to the old 'power corrupts' archetype.
Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed typo

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 117 of 175 (714150)
12-20-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-19-2013 6:37 PM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
when Jesus saves us, we dont get the credit nor the power...so we hate it.
When the force frees you, you get the power...thus you like it.
Plus the force never demands obedience...only respect.
Conclusion: People would like Jesus better if He gave them the power.
But that is not entirely correct. As per Christian dogma, when you are 'saved' by Jesus, your reward is eternal salvation and immortality alongside god. That is most definitely an increase in 'power'. Once saved, your soul will eternally be in paradise, free from disease, violence, hatred, etc. If that isn't power, I don't know what is.

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 123 of 175 (714165)
12-20-2013 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-20-2013 10:58 AM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
I always figured "The Force" to be somewhat Yin/Yang Dualism.
That is actually correct, at least from the standpoint of where Lucas said he got his inspiration for The Force. Most of it came from some of his research into Buddhism and Taoism.

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