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Author | Topic: The Origin of Novelty | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Thread copied here from the The Origin of Novelty thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
I'd like to request that the evolutionists treat this inquiry seriously and not try to pigeonhole it into what in their view were past insincere attempts.
Evolutionists must concede that they have no direct evidence of the origin of novelty. What they have is evidence that evolution produces diversity and adaptation, and from this they infer how evolution might produce novelty. The problem I think being posed is how close evolutionists can come to providing direct evidence of evolution producing novelty by using examples. The strongest examples would include evidence consistent with blind evolutionary processes as opposed to purposeful design.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
I think Bolder-dash is looking more for structural novelties (though it's ultimately up to him). He understands that many structures have predecessors, such as legs evolved from fins, but if at one time you had a creature whose body had nothing where his distant descendants have fins, how did fins originate?
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Hi Dr A,
As moderator I don't wish to get into any extended dialogs, or any dialogs at all for that matter, but if you have something to say that you think would bring more clarity to the discussion then if you could express yourself less cryptically it would be appreciated.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Dr Adequate writes: Well, sure, fine. I've said the same thing myself. In effect: "Lay off the poor little retarded creationist, 'cos he's a poor little retarded creationist". We have to give them a little more latitude than we'd give to an intelligent person, or we'd run out of people to debate with. In conformance with the Moderator Guidelines, this is written warning that your next violation of the Forum Guidelines in this thread will result in a suspension. I wouldn't characterize my efforts in the same way as Tangle, though I grant it is consistent with my actions. I feel I am trying to frame the discussion in the most challenging way possible for evolutionists so that we don't get bogged down again in arguments about whether, for an example from previous discussions, nylon digestion is novel or not.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
From Panda in Message 64:
You have a long history of being an ignorant arse - and clearly you intend to uphold that tradition. From AZPaul3 in Message 65:
You are truly a moron. From Drosophilla in Message 78:
Why do you suppose that the vast majority of the world’s cleverest scientists see the fundamental truths of evolution, whereas the scientifically illiterate make up the group that prefer to hang on to ancient tribal myths? Didn't you study at school? From Bolder-dash in Message 79:
First off, why don't you man up and go blow yourself. From Dwise1 in Message 84:
Not the rank-and-file know-nothings like Balder-dash... This is just a warning. The next message from anyone on this list who focuses his comments on the supposed deficiencies of his antagonist(s) will draw a suspension. Concerning the Topic The topic is the origin of novelty, but discussion seems to have already moved on to conclusions. If discussion of the origin of novelty has competed then I can put this thread into summation mode, let me know. I think a thread about how one draws conclusions from incomplete data, which seems to be more the focus at this time, would be pretty interesting if someone wants to propose one.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Hi Bolder-dash,
I think the answers you've been given are pretty much it. If you find them incomplete and unsatisfactory then there's nothing wrong with that, but that's a conclusion. There are always more details and examples that can be constructively explored, and the reasons why they are still unsatisfying or incomplete can also be constructively explored. For example, discussion of whether the adaptive process has a stopping point could continue. I can leave the thread open if constructive discussion continues. But it looks to me like the real issue now is how scientific investigation moves knowledge forward without having to first answer all questions, and that's a different topic. If someone wants to propose a thread somewhat along these lines I'll give it a look as soon as I can.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Bolder-dash writes: Now, I can't open the papers regarding your algal eating slugs... The links worked for me, though the first one took a while to come up. You might try giving them a minute or two after clicking on them, especially if you have an average or slow connection.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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Hi Bolder-dash,
Let me be more clear. As moderator I take no sides. My sole interest is fostering constructive debate, which we accomplish here by enforcing the Forum Guidelines. So as long as constructive discussion of your topic, the origin of novelty, is ongoing this thread will remain open, but what you seem more interesting in doing is declaring how great you're doing, as you did just now in claiming you've been delivering beat-downs similar to those received by Chinese football teams. So if this thread is really as you describe, "still fairly new and ongoing," then don't you think its a bit early for these kinds of declarations? Save them for the summation, or even better, be above that.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
AZPaul3 writes: I think he is ignorant of the subject, willfully so. And I think Bolder-dash is a participant in the discussion, not the subject of discussion. 'Nuf said? Bolder-dash, I see you too have replied to AZPaul3's message, so let me issue a caution. Obviously I am moderating this thread. Please let me handle moderator issues. If you choose to try to handle moderator issues yourself and it becomes an escalating ad hominem-fest then it is unlikely to end well suspension-wise. Please, no replies to this message. Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Perhaps one could confine one's comments to what was said rather than extrapolating from it to draw conclusions about the person who said it.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Faith, please let me handle the moderation. If you have an issue or complaint then please post it to Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0(NOT A DISCUSSION TOPIC!!!)[/color].
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Faith writes: It is sort of on topic but both Admin and Bolder objected so that's enough reason to leave. My comment to you was about moderation, not topic. I agree with AZPaul3 that allele distribution would be on-topic in any discussion about the origin of novelty.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
AZPaul3 writes: The study demonstrated that looking at homologous body functions and looking at molecular ones yields different results-something that would be wholly UNEXPECTED and as such UNPREDICTED by Darwinian evolution.
So from this study you conclude that some invisible un-evidenced sky jockey incompetent as a designer and blood thirsty in the extreme blew his nose and poofed all into existence? I will ignore your added quote from that stuffed-ego, lying, creationist shill from New Scientist. You should know that neither New Scientist nor Lawton are considered viable reliable sources for anything. Using their errant views and articles in no way supports your game. I couldn't find where New Scientist was the origin of the quote provided by Bolder-Dash. I found the quote at many sites, but not there. Also, about the negative comments about New Scientist, are you possibly thinking of some other magazine? It has its flaws, but I don't think they have any "stuffed-ego, lying, creationist shills" on staff.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
mindspawn writes: I wish I could carry on the Dates and Dating thread, but I got sick of Dr A's heckling there... Moderators are too few to be everywhere. If you're experiencing problems in any thread then you can post a note to Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0(NOT A DISCUSSION TOPIC!!!)[/color].
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