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Author Topic:   We Need States
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 63 (679329)
11-13-2012 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
11-13-2012 10:29 AM


Legal confusion
They breed legal confusion. Is it morally worse to murder a person in California than to murder that same person in Illinois? Surely the moral worth of a person is not related to where in the United States they reside. So how, then, is murder subject to a stricter penalty in California than in Illinois?
What you consider legal confusion is a feature of the system rather than a bug. No, it is not morally different to murder a person in California than in Illinois, but the matter of what is the appropriate punishment is a matter rational people can disagree on. I would in fact suggest that nobody knows the right answer. Allowing California and Illinois to experiment separately with what that answer ought to be seems like a reasonable solution to me.
I'd view gun laws in the same way. Within the confines of the 2nd amendment, I don't see why states cannot experiment with what works for them.
It's well-known that Texas is allowed to determine the educational textbook standards for the entire nation, due to their massive market power, while educators in 49 other states simply aren't afforded the opportunity to have input into that process.
I don't think this is quite the problem it used to be. It is completely feasible using modern methods to produce whatever textbooks states want. For example, Virginia manages to produce its own, riddled with errors, history text books and has no interest in the text books that Texas uses.
Pity the state that attempts to apply a greater regulatory burden to the corporations that operate there, for the benefit of its citizenry - Delaware has already made that determination for everybody
Not quite. State laws apply to you if you operate a corporation within that state. Primarily what you get by incorporating in Delaware is a standardized set of formalities and some law applying to shareholder's rights with respect to corporations. States can and do decide the overwhelming majority of the substantive law that applies to corporations.
I don't disagree with all of your points, but the "legal confusion" or non-homogeneous state law argument one isn't a one sided slam dunk in favor of getting rid of states.
I don't see why some hick in North Carolina should have any say in whether some drug is legal for recreation use in Oregon. Why is the current situation less democratic than having the entire country vote on the issue, when it doesn't affect the overwhelming majority of us?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2012 10:29 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2012 2:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 63 (679690)
11-15-2012 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
11-14-2012 10:17 PM


Re: The Burden
I don't see your states "do stuff" as an insurmountable obstacle. Under the constitution, there are many things that the feds do not do because they are not empowered to do them. The constitution leaves policing powers to local authorities. So states manage education, local crime fighting, intrastate commerce, etc.
Historically we had states before we had a union. If that were not the case, there is no reason why policing powers could not flow from the federal government to regional managers under federal oversight.
In short it is not persuasive to simply look at what states do now and to insist that those functions would not be carried out without states. We know that local and federal governments would pick up the slack. What is of interest are the ramifications of having the federal government involved in so much.
State governments are no guarantee against tyrrany. Historically we've seen lots of cases where federal law was the only insurer of personal freedom against the states.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 11-14-2012 10:17 PM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 63 (679803)
11-15-2012 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
11-15-2012 8:59 PM


Re: Legal confusion
State legislation almost never "graduates" to the Federal level because of the Tenth Amendment separation of state and Federal power.
That's correct, but a state is to adopt what works in other states if that solution fits. And the citizens can make that decision with a lot more practical information. And American citizens are free to move about to situations of their liking.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2012 8:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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