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Author Topic:   Morality without god
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 285 of 1221 (682179)
11-30-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
11-23-2012 11:21 PM


Re: Even sheep that think they walk independantly have a shepherd
Being led by the Shepherd.
You dont need to believe that the shepherd is leading you in order to be led by the shepherd. You simply have to do what you know internally is right. You may think its your conscience but it is His voice.
Yes, the Conscience seems to have access to a deeper source of knowledge because so often the instinctual emotional response experienced spark our Conscience into demanding behavioral changes.
We saw this when Rev Martin Luther king sacrificed his life in the name of Truth, that Separate but Equal was a lie..
That bullet ended all the rationalizations and debates within the white majority's collective Conscience such that Civil Rights Laws were enacted immediately and without any real opposition.
I believe this "deeper source of knowledge" is the Unconscious friend who is a mental companion to our Conscious Mind.
The Unconscious mind is reconstituted in every birth from the genetic storehouse of its memories learned by experience in previous lives.
This fountain of real truth that has evolved in the body of Humankind contains all the behavioral modifications our species have adapt our species to.
They former ways of all the species and previous lives of modern man that had led to disaster has been weaned out, and we are in the ongoing process of eliminating those still with us.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 300 of 1221 (682301)
12-01-2012 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by GDR
11-30-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Selflessness Test
It makes sense although I’m not convinced that there is an altruistic gene.
There must be such a gene according to the Theory of Evolution.
Nash, the Noble Prize winning mathematician used Group Theory to prove that one gins more, is more successful, when one works for the benefit of his group or neighbors than if he opposes them in competiion or otherwise to try to gain ground.
This is essentially a mathematical proof that bread cast upon the waters of other people's lives returns many fold.
(Nash received the prize for exactlythat Game Theory proof, by the way.)

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 302 of 1221 (682311)
12-01-2012 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Dogmafood
12-01-2012 7:03 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Action and benefit are like cause and effect where the effect begins to influence the cause.
There must be such a selfless gene according to the Theory of Evolution.
THIS IS BECAUSE BENEVOLENT ACTION WAS A BENEFIT TO OUR EVOLUTION, DE FACTO SINCE WE EVOLVED.
Nash, the Noble Prize winning mathematician used Group Theory to prove that one gins more, is more successful, when one works for the benefit of his group or neighbors than if he opposes them in competiion or otherwise to try to gain ground.
This is essentially a mathematical proof that bread cast upon the waters of other people's lives returns many fold.
(Nash received the prize for exactlythat Game Theory proof, by the way.)

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 316 of 1221 (682585)
12-03-2012 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by foreveryoung
12-03-2012 7:53 PM


Re: Selflessness Test
You are assuming that altruism is at least partially instinctual in humans.
Not necessarily instinctual, as I would argue Altruism is inherent and arose gentically as a survival mechanism.
This logically follows from the mathematical Game Theory Proofs that won Nash the Noble Prize.
To put it simply, the strategy leading to the "best result for you" is frequently, if not always, a much lower probability than the strategy leading to the "best result for the group".
And, mathematically, a cost benefit analysis leads to the combination of probability of success with perceived benefit as being highest with an appropriate group strategy rather than the purely individualistic one.
Since this a fact, it suggests we have been civilized as one application of that genetic propensity.
And, since we gather together in civilization, we have survived remarkably well, considering that we are not only the dominate species but the one now 6.66 Billion in number while a mass extinction of all other species has been in progress for the last century:
Its interesting to note that these other species are largely not cooperative nor social animals and by comparison are disappearing as civilization increases.
Not to ignore a reason for the growing extinction is civilization.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 326 of 1221 (682750)
12-05-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Dogmafood
12-04-2012 7:25 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
So how much of me is me and how much of me is my selfish genes? And how do you tell the two apart?
This is an important point which we need examine.
90% of "you" is unknown to your Conscious mind.
We discovered in the last century that there is a whole spiritual (non-physical/mental) world of the Subconscious at work inside our head.
Those seven Freudian/Jungian archetypes actually instigate and rationalize our behavior, often when we consciously call upon them to "take over.'
Like, our sex life is controlled by the Libido.
When a person gives vent to that Subconscious entity, one often is informed of one's own sexual proclivities which had there-to-fore been unknown to themselves, consciously.
Consciousness seems logically to be a State-of-Mind which has evolved from the mechanism of Reaction to Fear.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
During the moment of Fear, the mind is given the overt and clear permission to "think" and choose.
I assume that this fear became so generalized in puny man that the State of Mind persisted 24/7.
It is what we now call the Conscious mind.
It is really just that State of mind, during which we are gathering information and making decisions about future, i.e.; our reaction projected well ahead of any crisis.
But having become so absorbed by this Reaction to Fear, we have given little attention to the whole Phylogenetic aspect of our deep Unconscious mind which, like a third eye, has quietly been observing our experience on earth, and even interjecting thoughts in dreams and more directly at time.
That is the "real" me.
To see the immense importance of what I say here, I recommend reading Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior
by Leonard Mlodinow, the best-selling author of The Drunkard’s Walk and coauthor of The Grand Design, with Stephen Hawking.
Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: [Rev 2:1], (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego: [Gen. 28:12-13]): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance, (this Collective Unconscious mind that reigns over all mankind), was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual, experiential, previously accumulated, and even secular confirmed knowledge: [Dan 12:3-4]).

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 327 of 1221 (682751)
12-05-2012 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Straggler
12-04-2012 6:13 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Selfish genes can, and do, result in individual gene carriers (aka persons) undertaking selfless acts.
At first, it is difficult to get one's mind around this idea, that a person is NOT who the person we identify really is.
The person is always one of three States-of-mind.
The person we have all come to recognize as a person is actually the State-of-Fear or Conscious person.
It is my suggestion that we examine the self sacrificing Unconscious person that is really emotional and instinctually operating at a particular moment with the motivation found in the common ant, wherein the society of ants is dominant rather that this self center inner world of the moment.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 331 of 1221 (682776)
12-05-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Eli
12-05-2012 10:33 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
There are no 7 Freudian/Jungian archetypes.
Hmmm,...
I appeal to the literature rather than any direct personal proof of these archetypes.
But I do note that people today recognize and tag Egomaniacs with this epitaph, while the magazine, SELF has had a high circulation in America.
The terms I use of course were all devised by researchers in the science of Psychology, so I am merely deferring, as always, to available references.
But what seems consistent to me is the long tradition of referring to seven entities particularly noted for their ability to motivate misbehaviors that are called evil spirits:
1) Id = Lucifer
2) Libido = Satan
3) Ego = Mammon
4) Anima = Devil
5) Self = Beelzebub
6) Superego = False Prophet
7) Harmony = False shepherd
8) Conscience = Good Shepherd

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 337 of 1221 (682899)
12-05-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Dogmafood
12-05-2012 7:11 PM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are saying that altruistic behaviour persists in the species because it is beneficial to the species.
I am saying that it persists in the species because it is beneficial to the individual.
How can you benefit the species without benefiting the individual?
Proverbs 6:6
Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
But to be more helpful,think of the mothers instinct and how they would easily sacrifice themselves while totally oblivious to the personal danger to themselves simply because of the kind of love that is just that great for others.
Our instinct for survival is our strongest yet we have no real clue why, when one considers some of the things men have endured in its name.
Why is it inconceivable to you that such an instinct exists for men to save others at the same cost of their own lives?
On the battle field, I know men who became big brothers and somehow assumed some weird responsibility to make sure their little brothers did not die whatever the personal cost.
90% of the Medal of Honors are awarded to soldiers who jumped on a grenade to save all the others.

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 339 of 1221 (682902)
12-05-2012 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Taq
12-05-2012 6:28 PM


Re: Morality for all not just some
Then your supposed absolute morality is actually relative to what a person believes.
Ethics may be relative to the culture on lives in, but morality is simply a rule that says men can not do harm to themselves or others by the behavior or lack of a behavior they elect to exhibit.
Listing those behaviors one insists will hurt others becomes a personal and subjective argument for that person's abstaining from such behaviors.
But the test of whether the behavior could or might actually hurt others is open to discussion and debate in many cases.
Does Welfare actually hurt the children of Single Mothers, who represent 70% of all our social problems in America?
Is it then immoral to use Welfare with the intention of helping Single Mothers?
or, is it just immoral to become a Single Mother?
Or, is all this reason Single Motherhood was once consider immoral itself?
What ought be the Ethics of American citizens in regard to Welfare, considering the effect on the larger society it hurts?

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 340 of 1221 (682903)
12-05-2012 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Eli
12-05-2012 9:09 PM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
We protect our young because they are the "ark" that houses our genetic relics and allow us, in one way or another, to live forever.
We will give our lives for our children and close relatives as an act of self interest.
We lay our lives down for strangers to set a priori for all humans to protect each other because it increases the likelihood of our own progeny to have success even if we we have to give up our own lives to attain it.
source?

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 342 of 1221 (682905)
12-05-2012 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Eli
12-05-2012 9:09 PM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Re: research--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think your claim about 90% is researched.
Falling on a grenade
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Falling on a grenade refers to the deliberate act of using one's body to cover a live time-fused hand grenade, absorbing the explosion and fragmentation in an effort to save the lives of others nearby. Since this is almost universally fatal, it is considered an especially conspicuous and selfless act of individual sacrifice in wartime; in United States military history,...
... [B[]more citations for the Medal of Honor have been awarded for falling on grenades to save comrades than any other single act.[/B]
90% is the figure the Marines round it off at in rough terms.
I assume the sgt researched it.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 343 of 1221 (682906)
12-05-2012 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Eli
12-05-2012 9:14 PM


Re: Morality for all not just some
Yeah, I KNOW your 70% remark is bullshit.
lame...

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 352 of 1221 (682972)
12-06-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Eli
12-05-2012 9:35 PM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
What seargent?
A nobody drill instructor.
But he may have said posthumous awards.
None of which matters in regard to the essence of this as an example of brothely love which shows that it is not solely maternal love that will get people to ignore their iown self interests in the name of saving others.
It never ceaes to amaze me about losers who can not make intelligent and efective come backs.
They assume there is a rule that says if they can find just one little itty bitty unrelated and insignificant statement from the other side of debate, they can call general Bull Shit.
It as stupid as if that discredits the other side's argument because, in their weird and self serving mind, they have conclusively shown in the little item that the other side is wrong about something.
Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 354 of 1221 (682974)
12-06-2012 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2012 11:02 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Wait, doesn't "altruistic" mean that it is beneficial to others at the expense of the individual?
Exactly...
Its funny that Liberals like these people here will claim that man, by nature is good.
The conservative says the opposite and supports the idea of Original Sin, even if not religious.
That conservative believes that we need social and cultural rules that limit person behavior because it can and will lead to hurting others.
But here, they admit to believing that no such goodness, no altruism actually is a trait in our species.
They will argue that people do things to benefit themselves, even if it manages to also benefit others.
Christ said that inside us is the seed to the good shepherd, a conscience that could gets to turn the other cheek, or give away our coat.
He said this was inside us, we could have a personal relationship with that side of us, or that archetypal entity that has evolved as part of our psyche.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 357 of 1221 (682981)
12-06-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2012 11:46 AM


Re: Selfless Persons Selfish Genes
Well I was over simplifying. It doesn't have "a" gene, but evolved behavior comes from genes.
It is a Trait.
Mendel demonstrated that Traits exist which we have figured out to be tied into our genetic make up.
To say that this trait has a genetic source is scientifically true as it is for all traits.

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