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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2806 of 3027 (894735)
05-27-2022 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2804 by Phat
05-27-2022 1:22 PM


Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
The Jesus you try to market is just another made up character.
You have never even been able to explain what "Jesus (eternally alive)..." even means.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2804 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 1:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2808 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 1:50 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2807 of 3027 (894755)
05-28-2022 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2805 by Phat
05-27-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes:
Why MUST I show you evidence?
If you have evidence, why wouldn't you show it?
You said that you "markedly disagree" that "God has never evidentially shown up". If you have evidence that He has shown up, show us.
Phat writes:
Are you so cavalier towards God's existence that you require evidence?
I require evidence for EVERYTHING that is supposed to exist - Bigfeet, leprechauns, extraterrestrials, etc. That isn't "cavalier"; it's scientific.
Phat writes:
If so, our arguments will never go anywhere.
It's been clear for years that YOUR argument is going nowhere.
Phat writes:
You are unimpressed with my belief until and unless I give everything up.
Your refusal to do what Jesus instructed is just evidence that your "belief" is hollow. But I'd be unimpressed with your belief even if you did give everything up. Whether your personal belief is real or pretend, it's still only belief.
Phat writes:
I can't impress upon you how rare that occurs within global Christianity...
First, your claim is false. Catholic monks and nuns often take a vow of poverty. And Hutterites are a Protestant sect, similar in doctrine to Mennonites and other Baptists, who hold their property in common.
But rarity is irrelevant. When the young ruler asked, "What must I do to be saved?", Jesus didn't say, "If everybody sells what they have and gives to the poor, you will be saved." Salvation is an individual thing. You don't get into heaven because of what other people do.
Phat writes:
... or why it is a deal-breaker.
It's a deal-breaker because you don't want to do it.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
And God is also imaginary.
How convenient to state in order to get yourself off of a hook that you think I should be on!
Stop it! I am NOT the one who wants you on the hook. JESUS wants you on the hook!
And I don't believe the hook exists, so I couldn't possibly be on it. It's ONLY for believers. Get that through your head!
Phat writes:
Explain (for example) how humanism will achieve world peace.
I never said humanism would achieve world peace. Of course, it would be a more peaceful world if everybody was less religious and more human.
Phat writes:
Humanism won't work without money.
And conveniently, money exists.
Phat writes:
And money is about to decrease markedly in value even as prices inflate.
That happens pretty often. Why doesn't your God fix it?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
there are different ways of achieving the same goals.
​If so then why division rather than consensus?
You quoted me answering that question: Because there are different ways of achieving the same goals.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
What do you even mean by "a unified world"?
Sorta like a global NATO without the military element.
The reason for NATO was to prevent the spread of Communism. And NATO continues to exist to counter Russia - because Russians are Russians, whether they're Tsarists or Communists or gangsters.
There would be no reason for NATO to be global, with nobody to counter.
Phat writes:
How, for example, does anyone reason with Vladimir Putin?
A bit like trying to reason with you.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
And what does "spiritual unity" mean?
Being in one accord.
Like how the Catholics and Protestants are in one accord? Like how they never spent thirty years slaughtering each other over control of Europe?
Phat writes:
Letting God Bless not only America but the Planet.
But you're against globalism.
Phat writes:
Unlikely to happen with the CCP and Putin, however. China wants its turn running things without having to give the US a fair cut.
See? There you go, insisting on your fair cut. You're not interested in God "blessing the Planet".
Phat writes:
Explain how secular humanism would get anything done without a common cause?
Secular humanism does get things done, often in spite of the opposition by you Christians. For example, in the civilized world, medical care is provided by secular humanism. Health is a common cause, isn't it?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2805 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 2:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 2808 of 3027 (894757)
05-28-2022 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2806 by jar
05-27-2022 2:52 PM


Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
ringo writes:
If you have evidence, why wouldn't you show it?
In other words, as you yourself have said, if I believe that Jesus exists and is alive in Spirit and Corporeal Body (In Heaven) today, why don't I do everything He said? Now I finally get it. (Even though you've told me your belief over and over and over.
jar writes:
The Jesus you try to market is just another made-up character.
You argue that the evidence says so. You argue that God if God exists is unlike anything anyone has "marketed". According to ringo, Jesus likely never existed.
You, on the other hand, believe that Jesus existed and that God raised Him from the dead, but to you, it is irrelevant as a power unto itself. (Himself, in my eyes)
(jar) Christianity is about what we do.
Ringo: Message 204 also Message 374.
quote
I'm part of that "crowd". I don't believe that Jesus, the human, existed - because there is no solid evidence that he existed. I think the stories about him are most likely based on an amalgamation of preachers who wandered Palestine in the 1st century - like Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry was based on real-life evangelists.
ringo writes:
If you think Jesus existed, you need to produce evidence that Jesus existed. Somebody else's opinion on whether or not Jesus existed is not evidence.
And yet...
ringo writes:
Your refusal to do what Jesus instructed is just evidence that your "belief" is hollow. But I'd be unimpressed with your belief even if you did give everything up. Whether your personal belief is real or pretend, it's still only belief.
Thinking now about our decades-long discussions, I did some research.
Wiki writes:
Elmer Gantry is a satirical novel written by Sinclair Lewis in 1926 that presents aspects of the religious activity of America in fundamentalist and evangelistic circles and the attitudes of the 1920s public toward it. The novel's protagonist, the Reverend Dr. Elmer Gantry, is initially attracted by booze and easy money (though he eventually renounces tobacco and alcohol) and chasing women. After various forays into evangelism, he becomes a successful Methodist minister despite his hypocrisy and serial sexual indiscretions. (...)​Lewis researched the novel by observing the work of various preachers in Kansas City in his so-called "Sunday School" meetings on Wednesdays. He first worked with William L. "Big Bill" Stidger, pastor of the Linwood Boulevard Methodist Episcopal Church in Kansas City, Missouri. Stidger introduced Lewis to many other clergymen, among them the Reverend Leon Milton Birkhead, a Unitarian and an agnostic. Lewis preferred the liberal Birkhead to the conservative Stidger, and on his second visit to Kansas City, Lewis chose Birkhead as his guide. Other Kansas City ministers Lewis interviewed included Burris Jenkins, Earl Blackman, I. M. Hargett, Bert Fiske, and Robert Nelson Horatio Spencer, who was rector of a large Episcopal parish, Grace and Holy Trinity Church, which is now the cathedral of the Episcopal Diocese of West Missouri.[2][3] Lewis finished the book while mending a broken leg on Jackfish Island in Rainy Lake, Minnesota.
I hear that Lewis caused quite a furor back in the 1920's! I also am beginning to realize that I will never convince anyone here at EvC that God (through Jesus Christ) exists apart from the character in the book even if I DID give everything up. Which takes away any guilt which I felt. You guys may not even believe once the economy implodes and in the grand tradition of Gantry, even more, loons come to the public fore.
I suppose that the character in the book will need to come alive for you. Secular humanism sure won't save this planet!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2806 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 2:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2809 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-28-2022 2:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2811 by nwr, posted 05-28-2022 3:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2814 by jar, posted 05-28-2022 3:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2817 by ringo, posted 05-28-2022 9:33 PM Phat has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 672
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 2809 of 3027 (894758)
05-28-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2808 by Phat
05-28-2022 1:50 PM


Hospital or church?
I'm curious Phat, if you were hurt in a serious accident or suffered a serious medical problem, would you tell the ambulance driver to take you to the nearest hospital for emergency medical treatment or to the nearest church for emergency prayer treatment (and why that choice)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2808 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 1:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2810 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 2:37 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 2810 of 3027 (894759)
05-28-2022 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2809 by AnswersInGenitals
05-28-2022 2:18 PM


Re: Hospital or church?
I would most definitely pick the hospital if I was conscious enough to tell them. They go there by default anyway...I seriously doubt any ambulance could legally take a victim to a church! Besides I can always inform them later that I need prayers...once I'm stable.
Ringo claims that my faith is hollow because I'm wary of following Jesus to the letter of what He said in the book. I do believe that Jesus is present in Spirit and that He would agree with me choosing the hospital. Just sayin...

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2809 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-28-2022 2:18 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6038
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 2811 of 3027 (894761)
05-28-2022 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2808 by Phat
05-28-2022 1:50 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
I also am beginning to realize that I will never convince anyone here at EvC that God (through Jesus Christ) exists apart from the character in the book even if I DID give everything up.
I might still have doubts about Christian theology. However, if you and many others were to actually live as Jesus taught, I would be mightily impressed.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2808 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 1:50 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2812 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2022 3:12 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2812 of 3027 (894762)
05-28-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2811 by nwr
05-28-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
nwr writes:
if you and many others were to actually live as Jesus taught, I would be mightily impressed.
That's one big problem.
wwjd doesn't seem to be a question they ask themselves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2811 by nwr, posted 05-28-2022 3:05 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2813 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 3:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 2813 of 3027 (894764)
05-28-2022 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2812 by Tangle
05-28-2022 3:12 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically.
It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2812 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2022 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2815 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2022 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2816 by nwr, posted 05-28-2022 4:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 2814 of 3027 (894765)
05-28-2022 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2808 by Phat
05-28-2022 1:50 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
You still fall back on spouting totally nonsensical platitudes.
Phat writes:
You, on the other hand, believe that Jesus existed and that God raised Him from the dead, but to you, it is irrelevant as a power unto itself. (Himself, in my eyes)
Again, what does any of that even mean?
Phat writes:
(jar) Christianity is about what we do.
No Phat, the character Jesus in the stories says it is all about what you do. The various God characters in the story all say it is about what you do.
Mat 25.
Who built the Ark?
Who was told to grow the crops, harvest the crops, build the granaries and distribute the food to the needy.
Phat writes:
I suppose that the character in the book will need to come alive for you.
And more meaningless platitudes.
Phat writes:
Secular humanism sure won't save this planet!
Stop posting stupid shit Phat.
No one but humans can save humans.
The planet does not need saving, it will get along just fine without humans.
There is no current voice or even any attempt at saving humanity other than secular humanism.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2808 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2815 of 3027 (894767)
05-28-2022 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2813 by Phat
05-28-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Phat writes:
Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically.
It's not Ringo's hypothesis is it? It's Jesus's teaching. It's what he asks of his followers.
You know what he says, it's in your book, but you can't do it so you pretend to yourself that it wasn't what he said.
It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.
It's impossible to imagine in today's society. That's why you pretend Christians try to ignore it. But it's what Jesus asks of you.
His way was supposed to be hard wasn't it? How can you believe what you believe but ignore this because it's hard?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2813 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 3:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6038
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 2816 of 3027 (894770)
05-28-2022 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2813 by Phat
05-28-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically.

It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.
If Christians had been working together to make the world a better place for poor people, then maybe they would not actually need that retirement nest egg.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2813 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 3:27 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2830 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 7:04 AM nwr has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2817 of 3027 (894773)
05-28-2022 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2808 by Phat
05-28-2022 1:50 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Phat writes:
In other words....
Never mind trying to put "other words" in my mouth. Just respond to the words I say.
Phat writes:
Now I finally get it.
Then why don't you answer the question? If you really believe in Jesus, and you think He's of any earthly use, why don't you do what He told you to do? Really think about it and really answer.
Phat writes:
Thinking now about our decades-long discussions, I did some research.
It's about time.
Phat writes:
I also am beginning to realize that I will never convince anyone here at EvC that God (through Jesus Christ) exists apart from the character in the book even if I DID give everything up.
Doing what Jesus told you to do might convince some people that you actually do believe what you pretend to believe. But it wouldn't convince anybody that what you believe is true.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2808 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 1:50 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2818 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-28-2022 9:55 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3435
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 2818 of 3027 (894774)
05-28-2022 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2817 by ringo
05-28-2022 9:33 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Then why don't you answer the question? If you really believe in Jesus, and you think He's of any earthly use, why don't you do what He told you to do? Really think about it and really answer.
Oh, I know this one! Because no matter how hard he tries to fool himself, he knows it's all just imaginary BS. He's like that last kid in the third grade to finally realize Santa isn't real.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2817 by ringo, posted 05-28-2022 9:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20974
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2819 of 3027 (894777)
05-29-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2805 by Phat
05-27-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes:
You are unimpressed with my belief until and unless I give everything up.
Every once in a while a cult holds their beliefs so deeply that they commit mass suicide, for example Heaven's Gate and Jonestown. They gave their last full measure of devotion. This tells most people that such demonstrations don't mean anything since it's not possible that all mass suicide cults are right, their beliefs not being mutually consistent.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2805 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 2:04 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2820 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2022 1:44 PM Percy has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6835
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 2820 of 3027 (894779)
05-29-2022 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2819 by Percy
05-29-2022 10:50 AM


Give Up Other Gods Not Your Gold
Are the cults of Christianity mutually consistent in their interpretations of Jesus’s instructions to the young prince? I wouldn’t think so.
Like maybe, that fable about the prince was not about giving up his gold but was about giving up any spiritual possessions held in his life. To give up all other gods, spirits and icons and follow instead in HIS spiritual footsteps. Prosperity theology in its infancy. I should start a church.
So maybe Phat has an out. Since all of Christianity is a cafeteria of various, competing and contradictory creeds he can maybe adopt that portion of one of the less strict interpretations and keep his gold.
Of course it’s all apocryphal but the logical reasoning may be sound enough for Phat to keep both his possessions and his claim to be a True ChristianTM ©.
{aside}
I’m looking out for you, Phat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2819 by Percy, posted 05-29-2022 10:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2821 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-29-2022 6:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2827 by Percy, posted 05-30-2022 8:46 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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