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Author
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Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2777 of 3207 (894667)
05-25-2022 8:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 2776 by jar
05-25-2022 12:38 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
First of allo, why must it always be one way or the other with you? Our hypothetical Grandmother does not just sit on her blessed assurances and talk to God every day. She has a life. She raised a family. Her children knew her to be a tough old broad but they also witnessed her prayer life at times. She didn't expect the government to fix her problems. She wisely avoided most of them anyway. My example of a catastrophe would be if she had lived in Ukraine, for example, and if the irrational actions of Russia and Putin scared most of her neighbors off. She saw the helicopter, the motorboat and the rescuers whom God sent to help her act. She took full advantage of His blessings and she trusted that her prayers were answered. Unlike the old man from Texas who believed that all Gods and gods were made up and who trusted his trusty gun more than the Almighty to help him survive! 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2776 by jar, posted 05-25-2022 12:38 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2779 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 8:42 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2781 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2778 of 3207 (894668)
05-25-2022 8:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 2775 by ringo
05-25-2022 12:04 PM
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Re: How So?
Well, I'm critical of your thinking! If belief is in last place, you would need evidence that God did not exist. You yourself spent 30+ posts arguing with Stile that he didn't *know* that God did not exist, yet you tell me that you have evidence that negates the need for any belief!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2775 by ringo, posted 05-25-2022 12:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2780 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:49 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2782 of 3207 (894682)
05-26-2022 2:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 2781 by ringo
05-26-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
You're completely missing the point of the story. She refused the "blessings" sent by her fellow humans and stupidly waited for God to poof her out of trouble. My point is that your order (belief being in last place )is completely backward. We don't pray and then wait. It is not one or the other. We pray and then act. You would have us simply acting in humanist unison (as if there even were such a thing) and ignore God except as an afterthought. You often claim that God has never evidentially shown up. I would markedly disagree. God is Spirit. Humanism has no collective spirit apart from an imaginary one. Why do you think politics is always divided? Why do you think that a unified world (apart from a NATO military alliance) is never within reach? Yet you would rather hide behind the fact that since you don't believe God exists, you can hide from spiritual unity except on your own terms. And theres the rub. A Global Communion without God is in reality a countterfeit. Edited by Phat, : added points
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2781 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2797 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 11:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2783 of 3207 (894683)
05-26-2022 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2780 by ringo
05-26-2022 11:49 AM
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Re: How So?
ringo writes: Your disagreement with my conclusions is based on wishful thinking, not reasoning. I would argue that 50 years of daily prayer and communion is more of a discipline than a fantasy. It's like working out to strengthen the body...except that it strengthens the mind. Rule#1: YOU are NOT in charge. You are responsible, but NOT the Boss. Rule # 2: Imagining yourself in charge is like telling me I think I'm infallible.
ringo writes: We don't need evidence for non-existence. Non-existence is the default. Science always questions the default of the day. Science is not meant to judge or conclude anything.
ringo writes: That argument (with Style)had nothing to do with the existence of God. It was about knowledge. If I recall correctly, you said that nobody can have perfect knowledge without conducting every possible experiment. (an impossible task) When I said that you claim to have evidence that places belief in last place, you forgot to admit that you did not have perfect knowledge confirming your evidence. I have said before that I never consider myself infallible but that I believe that Jesus is infallible. Hence the daily prayer life for our wonderful Grandma. You will retort that even if the God Grandma prays to is infallible, she isn't. Which I would agree with.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2780 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:49 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2784 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 3:04 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2798 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2787 of 3207 (894688)
05-26-2022 6:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 2784 by jar
05-26-2022 3:04 PM
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One apologetic answer
jar writes: How can you tell whether any response you get from prayer is from Jesus and not Satan? In line with tradition and dogma, Jesus was a conduit for the Creator of all seen and unseen. Satan was attempting to mimic God yet was nothing more than a mouthpiece for his own imagined and actual authority. He told a partial truth in saying that he and we will be like God. The keyword is like. A fake Gucci bag is like a genuine one. A counterfeit twenty dollar bill is like an actual one. So how does anyone tell the difference? I know that you are no fan of apologists, but Beliefnet had what I consider a good article addressing your question which, after reading, I can agree with.
5 Ways to Distinguish Between God’s Voice and Satan’s Voice Read the short article as it elaborates, but in brief: 1) It Causes Panic, Not Calm (Satans Voice) 2) It Goes Against God’s Word 3) It Weakens Your Prayer Life 4) It Feels Like Commotion 5) It Makes You Feel Worthless Comments?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2784 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 3:04 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2789 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 7:10 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2795 of 3207 (894716)
05-27-2022 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 2794 by Percy
05-27-2022 9:12 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Before I say this, I will report that my blood sugars have come down though still high. OK... God has never appeared to me at all. I HAVE heard an audible voice perhaps 2 times in my life, though I will place that in the unexplained category. Usually, (and only after being on a regular discipline of daily prayer and meditation for a time, I will awaken with an epiphany (how do I explain it?) where there is something that I have no doubt I should address. It is never any carnal thing such as betting on the #3 horse or rushing to warn EvC of a coming economic collapse. It is usually a reminder of someone that I need to call or help in some way and it is always an act of generousity (and necessity) and never selfish.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2794 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 9:12 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2801 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:41 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2796 of 3207 (894717)
05-27-2022 11:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 2792 by jar
05-26-2022 10:31 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
And what "kids" like you and ringo have never learned is that God is all about belief and is not required to be forever verified by evidence. For one thing, God does not talk with or help everybody (despite your logical conclusion that He ought to do so) and though He loves the world He makes it clear that belief is part of the deal rather than stoic skepticism and doubt. The whole idea of "throwing Him away" was always silly and never fully explained as to why the idea was wise.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2792 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 10:31 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2802 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:50 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2803 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 1:07 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2804 of 3207 (894732)
05-27-2022 1:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 2803 by jar
05-27-2022 1:07 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
jar writes: The reason is simple. EVERY God and god ever described by any human is a creation of that human and exists only in that humans fantasy. GOD, if GOD does exist in not any of the God(s) or god(s) humans create. That still does not explain why one should "throw Jesus away". Jesus is to most "clubs" of Christianity Gods (dare I say GOD's) human character. Any Christian worth their salt knows that Jesus Himself is what makes our belief what it is. And no, He is NOT Holy Jeeves. He did not simply give us Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth and disappear either. Jesus (eternally alive) is what makes our 50-year praying Grandmother an example of lifelong discipline as opposed to lifelong fantasy.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2803 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 1:07 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2806 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 2:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2805 of 3207 (894734)
05-27-2022 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 2797 by ringo
05-27-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: You often claim that God has never evidentially shown up. I would markedly disagree.
ringo writes: So show us the evidence. You have said before that belief is ONLY to be employed in the absence of evidence. Why MUST I show you evidence? Are you so cavalier towards God's existence that you require evidence? If so, our arguments will never go anywhere. You are unimpressed with my belief until and unless I give everything up. I can't impress upon you how rare that occurs within global Christianity or why it is a deal-breaker.
ringo writes: And God is also imaginary. How convenient to state in order to get yourself off of a hook that you think I should be on!
ringo writes: The difference is that humanism gets things done, with or without a "collective spirit". Explain (for example) how humanism will achieve world peace. Humanism won't work without money. And money is about to decrease markedly in value even as prices inflate.
there are different ways of achieving the same goals.
If so then why division rather than consensus?
ringo writes: What do you even mean by "a unified world"? Sorta like a global NATO without the military element. How, for example, does anyone reason with Vladimir Putin?
ringo writes: And what does "spiritual unity" mean? Being in one accord. Letting God Bless not only America but the Planet. Unlikely to happen with the CCP and Putin, however. China wants its turn running things without having to give the US a fair cut. Hence why we spend so much on our military.
I couldn't care less about "Global Communion", so I don't know why you're rattling on about it. Explain how secular humanism would get anything done without a common cause?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2797 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2808 of 3207 (894757)
05-28-2022 1:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 2806 by jar
05-27-2022 2:52 PM
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Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
ringo writes: If you have evidence, why wouldn't you show it? In other words, as you yourself have said, if I believe that Jesus exists and is alive in Spirit and Corporeal Body (In Heaven) today, why don't I do everything He said? Now I finally get it. (Even though you've told me your belief over and over and over.
jar writes: The Jesus you try to market is just another made-up character. You argue that the evidence says so. You argue that God if God exists is unlike anything anyone has "marketed". According to ringo, Jesus likely never existed. You, on the other hand, believe that Jesus existed and that God raised Him from the dead, but to you, it is irrelevant as a power unto itself. (Himself, in my eyes) (jar) Christianity is about what we do. Ringo: Message 204 also Message 374. quote
I'm part of that "crowd". I don't believe that Jesus, the human, existed - because there is no solid evidence that he existed. I think the stories about him are most likely based on an amalgamation of preachers who wandered Palestine in the 1st century - like Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry was based on real-life evangelists.
ringo writes: If you think Jesus existed, you need to produce evidence that Jesus existed. Somebody else's opinion on whether or not Jesus existed is not evidence. And yet...
ringo writes: Your refusal to do what Jesus instructed is just evidence that your "belief" is hollow. But I'd be unimpressed with your belief even if you did give everything up. Whether your personal belief is real or pretend, it's still only belief. Thinking now about our decades-long discussions, I did some research.
Wiki writes: Elmer Gantry is a satirical novel written by Sinclair Lewis in 1926 that presents aspects of the religious activity of America in fundamentalist and evangelistic circles and the attitudes of the 1920s public toward it. The novel's protagonist, the Reverend Dr. Elmer Gantry, is initially attracted by booze and easy money (though he eventually renounces tobacco and alcohol) and chasing women. After various forays into evangelism, he becomes a successful Methodist minister despite his hypocrisy and serial sexual indiscretions. (...)Lewis researched the novel by observing the work of various preachers in Kansas City in his so-called "Sunday School" meetings on Wednesdays. He first worked with William L. "Big Bill" Stidger, pastor of the Linwood Boulevard Methodist Episcopal Church in Kansas City, Missouri. Stidger introduced Lewis to many other clergymen, among them the Reverend Leon Milton Birkhead, a Unitarian and an agnostic. Lewis preferred the liberal Birkhead to the conservative Stidger, and on his second visit to Kansas City, Lewis chose Birkhead as his guide. Other Kansas City ministers Lewis interviewed included Burris Jenkins, Earl Blackman, I. M. Hargett, Bert Fiske, and Robert Nelson Horatio Spencer, who was rector of a large Episcopal parish, Grace and Holy Trinity Church, which is now the cathedral of the Episcopal Diocese of West Missouri.[2][3] Lewis finished the book while mending a broken leg on Jackfish Island in Rainy Lake, Minnesota.  I hear that Lewis caused quite a furor back in the 1920's! I also am beginning to realize that I will never convince anyone here at EvC that God (through Jesus Christ) exists apart from the character in the book even if I DID give everything up. Which takes away any guilt which I felt. You guys may not even believe once the economy implodes and in the grand tradition of Gantry, even more, loons come to the public fore. I suppose that the character in the book will need to come alive for you. Secular humanism sure won't save this planet!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2806 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 2:52 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Hospital or church?
I would most definitely pick the hospital if I was conscious enough to tell them. They go there by default anyway...I seriously doubt any ambulance could legally take a victim to a church! Besides I can always inform them later that I need prayers...once I'm stable.  Ringo claims that my faith is hollow because I'm wary of following Jesus to the letter of what He said in the book. I do believe that Jesus is present in Spirit and that He would agree with me choosing the hospital. Just sayin... 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2813 of 3207 (894764)
05-28-2022 3:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 2812 by Tangle
05-28-2022 3:12 PM
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Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically. It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2812 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2022 3:12 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2815 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2022 3:47 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2816 by nwr, posted 05-28-2022 4:06 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2892 of 3207 (896379)
08-07-2022 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 2890 by Dredge
08-07-2022 2:45 PM
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I Dont Care About Proving The Absence of God.
Basically, the argument here is that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. If you combine that with a general disdain for organized religion in general as well as lumping most Christians in with Republicans, These evidence-based thinkers are practical and precise, but they would dismiss any God that we imagine to exist as fantasy based. Without solid objective unbiased evidence, they have written a relationship with God off of their to-do list. Ringo even goes so far as to argue that the entire concept of God is relative to the individual. I disagree because the relationship is a two-way street and apart from the still small voice whom I pray to and talk with, no non-Judeo Christian candidate is ever heard from. Except to destroy me. The demons masquerade as God's still small voice whenever I am dissatisfied with my lot in life and want something that I don't have. I can explain more fully through audio conversation rather than this tedious chore of written argument.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2890 by Dredge, posted 08-07-2022 2:45 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2912 of 3207 (896439)
08-09-2022 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 2909 by ringo
08-08-2022 12:54 PM
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The Man In The Book
ringo,referring to Dredge writes: Again, it isn't about proof. This thread is about weight of evidence. Stile's argument is that zero evidence is enough to decide he "knows". My attempted argument was that he doesn't "know" until he's finished looking. I would add that a person does not really "know" until they are finished believing/accepting. If you are convinced... either through your own reasoning, listening to Sam Harris or Richard Carrier, and/or observing the behavior of people who claim Christianity and seeing the lack of a better life in them vs you and other humanists... you will finish looking, finish believing (if you ever actually did) and above all finish accepting. You might argue that I myself finished accepting when I "made up" my own Jesus who went easy on me. I know that you can throw your relativistic arguments at me that the same holds true for all of the other "gods"....and I cant really give you evidence that there is only one God whose character is Jesus Christ (humanly speaking). And you have thrown down the gauntlet at insisting that I listen fully and obediently to the Jesus of the Book since He told me what to do. What I cant defend without changing and adapting is my belief that a relationship with Jesus means that I can get away with disobeying Him without getting thrown on the slagheaps of hell. My argument to you is that you cant really ever be finished looking until and unless you choose to stop looking. More evidence is and will be available as humans themselves will provide the evidence for or against. Edited by Phat, : edited
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2909 by ringo, posted 08-08-2022 12:54 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: The Man In The Book
You must be a teacher. You have really high standards. But ironically, I appreciate it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2913 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2022 5:02 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2936 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 11:54 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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