Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
117 online now:
PaulK, vimesey (2 members, 115 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,181 Year: 6,293/6,534 Month: 486/650 Week: 24/232 Day: 1/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1613
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2836 of 3027 (894865)
05-31-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2834 by dwise1
05-31-2022 11:48 AM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
dwise1 writes:
In college he had been a fundamentalist Christian. Surrounded every day by evidence that contradicted his beliefs, he had to maintain a blind eye all the time to filter out reality. That took a heavy toll on him so one day out of exhaustion he applied the Matthew 7:20 Test to his religion. Yes, it did so some good things like hospitals and charities, but it also did many bad things. And in presenting the Matthew 7:20 Test Jesus did stipulate that even one single bad thing produced by a religion makes the entire religion evil. So he became "a complete atheist and total humanist" (his own words) and is far more spiritually fulfilled than he had ever been as a Christian, far more than he ever could have been.
Thank you so much for this truly beautiful story of human redemption. It has moved me to tears. Can you see them?
Does the Catholic Church pass the "Matthew 7:20 Test"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2834 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 11:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2837 by jar, posted 05-31-2022 12:11 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 2843 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:02 PM Dredge has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 2837 of 3027 (894866)
05-31-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2836 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:04 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
No. In fact almost no Christian (maybe absolutely none) can pass the Matt 20 test which is pointed out explicitly in Matt 25 where the followers of Jesus are judged as Goats while atheists and most non Abrahamic religions are judged as sheep.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2836 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2841 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:37 PM jar has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1613
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2838 of 3027 (894868)
05-31-2022 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2834 by dwise1
05-31-2022 11:48 AM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
dwise1 writes:
On progressive radio regarding the recent anti-abortion anti-life advances in the USA, a caller related the story from 30 years ago of a friend whose fetus had died. She was bleeding and would have died soon if that dead fetus weren't removed. Her husband took her to the ER of a Catholic hospital and they refused to treat her because that would have been an abortion. They were literally willing to let her die in agony. Her husband had to search desperately for a hospital that would save his wife's life and thankfully succeeded.
Complete bullshit, of course. If the doctors at that Catholic hospital knew the fetus was dead, they would have had no ethical objection to removing it.
On progressive radio
... a euphemism for a bunch of Loony Left atheists who typically hate the Catholic Church and love everything that is sleazy and unclean. We've got the same species of deceitful, left-wing trash down here in Australia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2834 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 11:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2839 by ringo, posted 05-31-2022 12:31 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 2845 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:25 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2839 of 3027 (894869)
05-31-2022 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2838 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:20 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Dredge writes:
If the doctors at that Catholic hospital knew the fetus was dead....
See Schrödinger's cat.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2838 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:20 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1613
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2840 of 3027 (894870)
05-31-2022 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2834 by dwise1
05-31-2022 11:48 AM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
dwise1 writes:
In the Matthew 7:20 Test Jesus was very uncompromising: even just one single wicked consequence of a religion makes the whole religion wicked. Totally black and white, not one single hint of gray to it.
How did you come up with this idiotic interpretation of Scripture?
Your "hospitals and charities" count for nothing to Jesus.
A Bible dunce has spoken ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2834 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 11:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2842 by ringo, posted 05-31-2022 12:43 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 2844 by AZPaul3, posted 05-31-2022 1:09 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 2846 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:31 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1613
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2841 of 3027 (894871)
05-31-2022 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2837 by jar
05-31-2022 12:11 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
jar writes:
In fact almost no Christian (maybe absolutely none) can pass the Matt 20 test which is pointed out explicitly in Matt 25 where the followers of Jesus are judged as Goats while atheists and most non Abrahamic religions are judged as sheep.
Hilarious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2837 by jar, posted 05-31-2022 12:11 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2847 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2842 of 3027 (894873)
05-31-2022 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2840 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:35 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Dredge writes:
How did you come up with this idiotic interpretation of Scripture?
Be more specific. What exactly is "idiotic" about the obvious interpretation?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2840 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5192
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 2843 of 3027 (894875)
05-31-2022 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2836 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:04 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Thank you so much for this truly beautiful story of human redemption.
Always a pleasure to share pearls of wisdom. I'll even cast them before swine (not referring to present company).
I haven't had the opportunity to use this one yet, but if asked "Are you saved?" I can honestly answer "Yes. I stopped being a Christian over half a century ago and it's the best thing to have happened to me!"
Does the Catholic Church pass the "Matthew 7:20 Test"?
Of course not! No religion nor any other human endeavor could.
That test "straight from Jesus' mouth" is actually unreasonable. A religion has to be absolutely perfect or else it's completely evil? That's impossible to live up to! Whoever put those words in Jesus' mouth hadn't thought it through.
However, citing that test is very useful to get a religious fanatic to reflect on his own gross misbehavior. Not that any of them ever would self-reflect, but we must keep trying. For that matter, it's lost on most "true Christians" because it's from the Bible, a book that none of them have ever bothered to read.
But I keep citing it in the hope that it might eventually get through to them. A pessimist must be the happiest person alive: 99.99% of the time he has the satisfaction of being right and occasionally he's pleasantly surprised.
Though we do see so many fundies and other extreme Christian types using the Test's same extreme black/white lack of reasoning all the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2836 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:04 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6835
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2844 of 3027 (894878)
05-31-2022 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2840 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:35 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
How did you come up with this idiotic interpretation of Scripture?
So from your catholic apologetics the proper interpretation of that scripture would be what?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2840 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5192
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2845 of 3027 (894879)
05-31-2022 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2838 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:20 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Complete bullshit, of course. If the doctors at that Catholic hospital knew the fetus was dead, they would have had no ethical objection to removing it.
All I have to go by is my memory of what the caller had said. Maybe the fetus wasn't verifiably dead yet -- or maybe it wasn't even a fetus yet but still just an embryo -- , but there was definitely no way that the mother could survive and hence neither could the embryo/fetus.
He also didn't state (nor probably knew) the reasons stated by the doctors for their refusal to act to save her life. It might have been nothing more than a strict hospital policy against any kind of abortion that they had to follow blindly. Christians are that way, you know, blindly obeying "God's Law" even when it will cost a life -- according to my rabbinic lit professor, Rabbi Kalir, Jewish morality holds that if obeying God's laws would result in the loss of a life, you must disobey God and save that life (because of that, I hold Jewish morality to be far superior to Christian "morality").
The point of his story is that the Catholic hospital would have let her die. Regardless of whatever excuses they may have given. Though I seem to recall the caller saying that it was because the procedure would have technically been classified as an abortion.
DWise1 writes:
On progressive radio
... a euphemism for a bunch of Loony Left atheists ...
Well, reality does have a definite liberal bias.
And it's a proven fact that religious fanaticism has caused far more than its share of suffering and death, something that "Loony Left atheists" oppose and try to work against.
For example, now that access to safe abortions is being threatened in the USA, many state legislatures are busy passing laws banning abortion in all cases, including to safe the life of the mother. And they are writing those laws for religious reasons. Specifically for the purpose of their Christian beliefs (actually for the purpose of playing to their religious fanatic constituents).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2838 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:20 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2848 by kjsimons, posted 05-31-2022 3:20 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5192
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2846 of 3027 (894880)
05-31-2022 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2840 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:35 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
How did you come up with this idiotic interpretation of Scripture?
By having actually read the Bible.
You should try it some time.
DWise1 writes:
Your "hospitals and charities" count for nothing to Jesus.
A Bible dunce has spoken ...
How so?
The Matthew 7:20 clearly states that it is impossible for a good tree to being forth wicked fruit, but rather any wicked fruit is evidence of a wicked tree which should be cut down and thrown into the fire (Jesus' own words, according to Scripture).
It doesn't matter how much good a religion does, because even a single wicked consequence of that religion defines that religion as wicked, erasing all the good that it may have ever done.
It's right there in the Bible. Read it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2840 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5192
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2847 of 3027 (894881)
05-31-2022 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2841 by Dredge
05-31-2022 12:37 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Hilarious.
Are you saying that religious teachings are nothing but a joke?
There may be hope for you yet.
Read the Bible. That's what turned me and many others into atheists. It could help you too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2841 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 12:37 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2849 by jar, posted 06-01-2022 9:23 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 777
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 2848 of 3027 (894891)
05-31-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2845 by dwise1
05-31-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
This happened in Ireland back in 2012, a Dr. died because the hospital wouldn't perform an abortion because the fetus had a heartbeat even though the pregnancy was killing her. Now in this case the fetus wasn't dead yet, but the refusal to consider the mother's life before the fetus is the insanity of religion on display. Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2845 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2850 by Son Goku, posted 06-02-2022 4:13 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2849 of 3027 (894898)
06-01-2022 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2847 by dwise1
05-31-2022 1:33 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
The problem is that far too many Christians willingly refuse to honestly read what is written in the various stories cataloged as 'The Bible we accept and all the other versions are wrong' and paradoxically use 2Timmy as the 'source'.
Sola Scritura painted much of Christianity in a corner where they must deny and hand wave away much of what is actually written so that they can claim that what is written is authoritative and absolute.
2Timmy and 2Petie are among the early indicators of the Apologist and Carny Barker. Whoever actually suggested that Jesus should ride into Jerusalem on an ass was their mentor and guide. When in doubt, put on a show and proclaim it fulfills a miracle.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2847 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:33 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 2850 of 3027 (894922)
06-02-2022 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2848 by kjsimons
05-31-2022 3:20 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Just to say this isn't a closely tied to religion in Ireland as I think it is in the US. Opposition to abortion is still pretty high amongst atheists in Ireland. When I was an undergrad the head of the anti-abortion league in my uni was an ardent atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2848 by kjsimons, posted 05-31-2022 3:20 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2851 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2022 4:32 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022