Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,916 Year: 4,173/9,624 Month: 1,044/974 Week: 3/368 Day: 3/11 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Maximizing Freedom is the Goal of Morality
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 69 of 85 (417602)
08-23-2007 12:35 PM


Has it occured to anyone here that you guys are asking bullshit questions to try to corner someone into a moral trap?
Rape a child... kill billions of people... seriously... these questions don't deserve any answer at all. The question "why are unicorns pink?" although also a bullshit question, is less a bullshit question that what you people are asking.
If these bullshit questions are treated with the same seriousness as the real questions, you can use these bullshit questions to invalidate anyone's moral stance. Ask Bush if he would rape a 10 year old Muslim girl to save America. Ask Bush if he would kill the billion plus Muslims in the world to save America's freedom. Ask the pope if he would rape a 10 year old christian girl to save the Catholic church.
Seriously, folks, these are bullshit questions. Stop treating them like they're some kind of valid moral questions.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2007 12:55 PM Taz has replied
 Message 74 by Stile, posted 08-23-2007 1:18 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 81 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 3:38 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 76 of 85 (417631)
08-23-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2007 12:55 PM


CS writes:
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we could type about whatever the hell we felt like typing about and treat them however we want. I also thought that if you don't like a thread that we aremaking, then you can just shut the hell up and stay out of it.
If you have the right to keep typing whatever the hell you feel like typing, then this right applies to me, also. I feel like bitching how you guys are wasting your debate on bullshit questions.
Would you cut off your penis to bring back Elvis? Would you rape a 10 year old girl to prevent her from being taken by goblins? Would you kill a Muslim to stop Hitler from being born? I mean, what kind of questions are these if they're not bullshit questions?
I'm gonna keep bitching until I've determined it not necessary for me to keep bitching.
I mean, damn... Must you bitch?
Because you do it a lot...
Yes, I must bitch in order to keep you from being raped by the pope. The very fact that you haven't been raped by the pope is proof that my bitching does indeed stop him from raping you.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2007 12:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2007 3:17 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 80 of 85 (417841)
08-24-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Stile
08-24-2007 1:39 PM


Re: Wait a second..
Stile writes:
And, as long as we're alive, there's hope for recovery.
Being a star trek freak, I can relate this line of thought to one particular episode of DS9.
A Federation Think Tank composed of genetically engineered individuals with IQ's that are off the chart concludes that the Federation's war with the Dominion would end with an unconditional surrender by the Federation after 100 billion Federation citizens dead. However, if the Federation is to surrender right away, 10 generations later there will be an uprising and a new greater and much more powerful Federation will form and destroy the Dominion.
Since you guys are discussing about saving the world by raping a little girl, I can't see why I can't bring up a star trek episode to relate to our scenario.
Anyway, I think that survival first or not really depends on the situation. If I was a German who wanted to help some Jews, I'd stay low and try to help in ways that would not get killed outright. Sure if this seems cowardly. But what good am I if I'm dead? How many Jews can I help when I'm dead?
On the other hand, if someone points a semi-automatic into a crowd of people with me in it, rather than scream and be gunned down, I'd rather try to rally the crowd to stomp on this joker with the semi-automatic.
But, well, theoretically, I still find freedom to be more important. And I've kinda been talking theoretically from the beginning of this thread
Of course, right down to it, ultimately freedom is more important than survival. If it wasn't, Britain would have surrendered to the Germans. Russia would have surrendered. Greece would have surrendered. Heck, we would have surrendered right after Pearl Harbor.
By fighting back, a lot more of our people died, but the rest retained their freedom.
I understand how the choice of human-species destruction is rather theoretical in itself. But I do admit that such a choice has a higher-chance of being a part of reality than "infinitely preventing all chance of freedom-recovery for all eternity" does.
Would you have agreed with the Federation Think Tank that insisted on surrendering to the Dominion right away to save 100 billion lives?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Stile, posted 08-24-2007 1:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Stile, posted 08-27-2007 10:54 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 83 of 85 (418409)
08-28-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stile
08-27-2007 10:54 AM


Re: Wait a second..
Stile writes:
Choice A:
-100 billion people die (within the current generation)
-unconditional surrender to the Dominion (within the current generation)
But... what does the surrender entail? Becoming complete slaves? Or simply living under their social rules of conduct?
And how long does this last? Is there no chance, ever, of becoming free again?
According to the Changeling, Earth was to be completely scorched to prevent any chance of uprising in the future after the war is won. The humans will be hunted to extinction. So, whatever the future holds for the Federation and the Dominion, after the war is lost there won't be any human left to speak of. The 100 billion plus casualty will include human and alien members of the Federation.
Choice B:
-surrender right away, save 100 billion lives (current generation)
-10 generations later, an uprising occurs and humanity forms even stronger than before and destroys the Dominion
But, again, what does "surrender" entail? Are the terms slightly better in some way?
When Cadassia surrendered to the Dominion, they retained all their social structures and all their military organizations. The only thing that changed was that they would now have to fight for the Changelings (Founders) whenever they are called to do so. The Dominion extended this offer to the Federation. Surrender now and pretty much the only thing that will change is the Federation will need to fight for the Changelings whenever they call.
Do I have the information correct?
Pretty much.
As you can see, the writers of Star Trek made sure that the offer of surrender seemed like a very very good deal and that not surrendering right away will mean a very harsh end for humanity.
In general, I suppose we'ed have to know "how good" these Think Tank guys are. Are they ever wrong? Are they ever fooled? Can they possibly understand exactly how things are going to unfold... 10 generations into the future?
According to Star Trek, these think tank guys are the smartest humans to have ever lived. They were genetically engineered solely to foresee the future.
No, they can't actually see the future. We later find out that they are not infallible because, like most things, the events that lead to the future are a chaotic system. There are just too many variables for anyone/anything/any organization to wrap their heads around.
These think tank guys everything right in the much nearer future. But the result of their calculations of the far future was but one branch of possibility among many. They simply arrived at the most probable future.
1. The Think Tank is undisputable. For purposes of this scenario, they will be taken as perfect, absolute predictors of the future.
Well... according to Star Trek they can out-calculate even the best computers the Federation had to offer. If you give them a problem to solve, they'd solve it with their minds faster than the fastest computers of the Star Trek universe could solve. But no, they are not absolute predictors of the future. They can only foresee the most probable future timeline.
2. It will be assumed that losing to the Dominion in Choice A will entail complete slavery of the worst conditions, with absolutely no chance of ever being free again, for eternity.
As well as the extinction of the human race. So, if the Federation will ever recover, it will be headed by another race like the Vulcan or the Xindi.
In this case, I'd easily opt for Choice B. I don't see how anyone couldn't. It's then simply the difference between choosing future freedom over the loss of eternal freedom.
Well, I'll tell you this much. The hardheaded Starfleet Command decided to fight it out. Turned out that the think tank didn't put into account the god-like alien race called The Prophets. Captain Sisko pleaded The Prophets to help the Federation. In a blink of an eye, The Prophets wiped some 3 thousand Dominion warships out of existence. Didn't win the war for the Federation, but it did even the odds out a little bit.
The two assumptions are key, of course. Any unknowns on either of those two assumptions would add to leaning towards Choice A over Choice B.
TADA!!!!
Which brings back to my original point. The reason why I called the raping little girl questions bullshit questions is because (1) while there are answers to them those answers are essentially meaningless due to practicality, (2) we will never ever encounter such a scenario with raping the 10 year old girl to save humanity thing... I mean... come on for goodness sakes..., (3) there ain't enough information attached to those questions for anyone to make any morally consistent decision either way, and (4) the moral implications of those questions (if they have any) are completely useless in the face of reality.
Would Ted Haggard rape a boy... ok bad example.
Would president Bush eat a unicorn to win the war in Iraq? You can't answer that question without saying "wait a minute... huh?" to yourself.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Stile, posted 08-27-2007 10:54 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Stile, posted 08-28-2007 1:14 PM Taz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024