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Author Topic:   Maximizing Freedom is the Goal of Morality
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 85 (416598)
08-16-2007 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
08-16-2007 4:57 PM


Morals give understanding to the entailments of freedom
I propose that morality is nothing more than a code of conduct for interaction between humans. And therefore, it's goal should be to protect as much freedom for all individuals as possible.
Although I see where you are coming from, just by saying this you are making a moral pronouncement about a moral pronouncement, and thus, are running in to the same problem as before.
In other words, you can't say that morals are really about freedom, and how they should not be limited, because you are using a moral principle in order to prove all such principles. That's redundant-- needlessly at that. You might as well have said, morals are moral.
But, nonetheless, I see what angle you are coming from. And while I agree that freedom in most cases is a good thing, leaving it by itself without any clear references, leaves it open to manipulation.
Obviously we are not free to do whatever we wish without consequences being attached with them. I'm not free to smash open someone's face at my whim, nor am I free to grope every attractive female that comes my way.
There are parameters in life and those very parameters are directly dictated by our morals. So, you can't say that morals are about freedom, but rather, freedom is predicated on the notion of morals-- not the other way around.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 08-16-2007 4:57 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stile, posted 08-17-2007 8:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 85 (416616)
08-17-2007 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Archer Opteryx
08-16-2007 11:14 PM


Succinct
You don't say individual freedom should be a goal of society. You say it should be a goal of morality.
But on what basis can you declare what morality itself 'should' do? The word implies that you are already using a system of moral belief as your frame of reference.
Yes, precisely...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-16-2007 11:14 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-17-2007 1:11 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 85 (416814)
08-18-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stile
08-17-2007 8:24 AM


Re: Another shot, coming soon
Hopefully I can re-word whatever I'm trying to say.
Eh, take your time. If things are hectic at work, by all means prioritize your time.
Maybe I just mean exactly what you and Archer are saying, but I'm not even sure I'm clear on what I want to say yet. Which is why I'm going to enjoy this thread, it's going to be impossible for me to not learn something
Although being a major in philosophy is just about worthless in the real world, there is still much we can glean from it and apply it in our lives.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Stile, posted 08-17-2007 8:24 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 85 (416996)
08-18-2007 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stile
08-17-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Yes, I think...
I agree that I'm saying "I find being fair and equal is the most important ideal". Where someone could just as easily say "I find being selfish to be the most important ideal".
Indeed, some people do see selfishness as being virtuous.
I simply want to point out, that if one finds being fair and equal to be "the most important", then they'll agree with what I've said that we should respect everyone's right to pursue life and happiness equally. (If you don't think this follows, then I'm very interested in what my flaw is).
Of course I agree with you that such sentiments are extremely virtuous. My only contention is that you are using a moral in order to prove all morals.
Respecting people's rights to personal freedom is based off of a moral template. You can't very well say that this is where our morals derive from, since it in itself is a moral.
I also want to point out that not agreeing with "freedom being the goal of morality" means you have another higher goal.
I just was clarifying what "freedom" entails. Anyone could frame their morals in quaint terms as freedom, but we are not free to do whatever our hearts content. In fact, your freedoms may very well stymie another persons freedom in the process.
Case in point: You may want total freedom to have sex with whom ever you want. But another persons morals may not want them to be raped. So which is right if morals are predicated on freedom alone?
Obviously, a freedom such as this is not a qualifier. Where then do morals come from?
I'd like to say that "treating others fair" is rational while "being selfish" would be irrational.
Sure, but that in itself borrows from a moral framework, does it not?
shouldn't the default be that we're all equal?
Certainly, it feels right to have everyone on a level playing field. It seems righteous. But where does this spring, especially in light of the animal world where domination and selfish will reigns supreme in a dog eat dog, kill or be killed world?
What has happened in man that he intrinsically understands these principles without thought, if not by the providence of Almighty God?

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 08-19-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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