Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,920 Year: 4,177/9,624 Month: 1,048/974 Week: 7/368 Day: 7/11 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


(4)
Message 45 of 65 (663101)
05-21-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Hey Buz,
1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.
If time stretched infinitely into the past, and energy/mass can neither be created nor destroyed, and entropy within the closed system of the Universe can only ever increase...
The Universe would have entered what we call "heat death" an infinite amount of time int he past.
"Heat death" refers to a state in which the Universe has no more available energy; that is, all potential energy is used up, there are no more energy differentials any more from one location in space to the next, the energy distribution of the Universe is flat.
The stars would have burned out. All of them. Even black holes would have completely evaporated.
It's inevitable within a closed system, given sufficient time. And with infinite time, it would have already happened...an infinite amount f time ago. We wouldn't exist.
This is why modern astrophysics considers there to have been an absolute minimum value of time, which we popularly refer to as "T=0." There has to be a minimum value, time cannot simply stretch infinitely into the past, because that would result in a Universe completely different from the one we actually observe.
Your basic arguments are once again based on fundamental misconceptions regarding physics.
And, of course - crystals. Order does spontaneously form from chaos. Happens all the time. Ever snowflake, every ice cube in my freezer, the diamond on my fiance's finger, the quartz crystals in your granite counter top...all examples of disorder naturally and spontaneously forming into a significantly ordered form. Which leaves aside life, of course - life existing by taking disorganized matter and energy from the environment and using it to grow, live, and reproduce, all without any intelligent guidance required.
A tree doesn't have a brain...but its structure, from individual cell to the entire trunk and canopy of leaves is far more ordered than the haphazard chaotic distribution of elements and molecules in the air and soil.
You're just wrong, Buz. Completely. So completely that it's clear you just don't understand even the most basic concepts you're trying to discuss.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2012 3:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 8:08 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


(2)
Message 47 of 65 (663122)
05-21-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Capt Stormfield
05-21-2012 3:15 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
In fact, nowhere in this thread can I find any instance where you are providing a cogent argument as to why the addition of an sentient entity to the universe renders it simpler.
So far as I can tell, Buz's arguments (and similar arguments from a great many who have heard of Occam's Razor but fail to understand it) are based upon an incorrect definition of the word "simpler."
Buz is using the colloquial definition, and interprets Occam's Razor to mean that "the explanation that I find easiest to understand* or that best satisfies my personal credulity is more likely to be true." The English language is unfortunately deficient when it comes to communicating scientific ideas with any precision.
* - the word "understand" is used loosely here, as typically the "explanation" chosen is not a real explanation at all. A historical example would be the popular hypothesis of phlogiston, which was supposed to be the substance contained by flammable materials which burned. The hypothesis didn't actually explain why phlogiston burned, or what it was other than "that which burns," it was simply a label applied to a mysterious phenomenon that thereby allowed the self-deception of adherents that they actually understood the phenomenon. Buz's internal understandings of science are, by and large, similar - he knows that some words have meanings that relate to each other, and so he uses those words in sentences and paragraphs without actually understanding what the words mean beyond what he's able to grasp through context provided by more common terminology...which unfortunately tends to have very different meaning in everyday use.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-21-2012 3:15 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 62 of 65 (663347)
05-23-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
05-23-2012 7:34 AM


Re: O.R. Supportive To. Biblical ID Creationism
Wow, Buz.
Let me give you a little help. I understand what you're trying to say...you're just not saying it very well. I don't necessarily agree (I'll expand on that at the end), but this might be a better way to communicate what you're trying to say:
In the case of a major dispersion of members of a low-population nation, the most likely result is that the culture of that small nation will be lost as its former citizens mingle with the citizens of their new homes. Their cultural identity will, over time, be lost and subsumed into the cultures of their individual destinations.
In the case of the Jews, this did not entirely happen. Many Jews kept their culture mostly intact, despite living for multiple generations in "foreign" lands. This culminated in a mass return to their ancestral homeland after WWII, when Israel was re-created as a nation.
Because this course of events was unlikely, any hypothesis that would result in a higher probability of the Jews retaining their cultural identity and returning to their ancestral nation after many generations of exile will have a probabilistic advantage over hypotheses that count that probability as low. The degree of that advantage is proportional with the degree that the retention of cultural identity was previously considered improbable.
There is one specific framework of hypotheses which predicted, in advance, that the Jews would be exiled from Israel and yet would return many generations later with their cultural identity still mostly intact.
Biblical prophecy (I'll leave inserting chapter and verse to you, Buz) predicted that this very unlikely sequence of events would occur, in advance.
Since hypotheses that correctly predict an unlikely set of observations or events have a probabilistic advantage over hypotheses that did not successfully predict those same events, this is supportive evidence (not proof) that those Biblical prophecies are based upon an accurate model - in other words, that the "Biblical record" is true. The strength of the support of this evidence is proportional to the degree of improbability of the events correctly predicted as compared to other hypotheses; other evidence must be considered independently and may shift the probability of the accuracy of the entire Biblical record up or down beyond the successful prediction of the repatriation of the Jews.
While Occam's Razor suggests that hypotheses that do not introduce extraneous terms or entities are more likely than those that do, the hypothetical framework of the Biblical record requires the existence of a deity, considered extraneous by naturalistic hypotheses.
If the Biblical record hypothetical framework is shown to be significantly more likely to accurately reflect reality than naturalism, this would then by extension provide supporting evidence for the existence of a deity; the existence of God would be included in the most parsimonious explanation for the accuracy of the Biblical record.
Does that seem to match what you're trying to say, Buz? It's not even necessarily wrong.
The problem is that I think you're overestimating the degree of unlikelihood for specific events like the retention of Jewish cultural heritage, or the reformation of the Israeli nation. Many people who emigrate to foreign countries keep their cultural heritage alive over multiple generations despite pressure to conform. This happens for several reasons, but those relevant to the Jews would likely be the formation of Jewish communities within foreign nations, racist and religious exclusion of Jews preventing integration into the surrounding culture, and the fact that the reformation of Israel was driven in large part by believers in the very prophecy you mention.
The proportional difference in likelihood between the Biblical record hypothetical framework and more naturalistic explanations for those same events is not nearly as significant as I think you believe. That being the case, I don't find the exile and return of the Jews to Israel to be particularly strong supportive evidence for the Biblical record as a whole - certainly not sufficient to overwhelm more parsimonious explanations.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-23-2012 7:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024