The slickest con ever perpetrated on mankind

In the Physical Laws ....What if they were different before? thread, foreveryoung wrote: The following response would be off topic there, so I am proposing a new thread.In the past mankind was very limited in his understanding of his surroundings, and felt powerless to affect his destiny. Because of this helplessness, any hope or chance of affecting his surroundings was eagerly seized upon, whether it was hunting magic, attempts to control the weather, solstice and equinox ceremonies, healing rituals or what have you.And into this environment emerged the shamans (of all kinds) who opportunistically promised to fix things, to lure animals to the hunters, control the weather, provide the proper solstice and equinox ceremonies, heal the sick and so on. This is the origin of the "alternate realities" of which you write, brought to us by shamans.But the slickest con ever perpetrated on mankind was the one put forth by those shamans promising eternal life. Without a shred of evidence that they could deliver what they promised, the shamans made glowing promises of eternal life--if only people would do as they directed. Not surprisingly, this involved payments to the shamans. But what choice did the victims have? They desperately wanted what the shamans claimed to be able to deliver, and the shamans were the only game in town. They still are.Which brings to mind the following Heinlein quotes, that say much of what I have just said in a much more professional manner:

The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it. Time enough for Love, 1973

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The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history. Time enough for Love, 1973

In any other field of human endeavor such behavior would end up with the ones making those grandiose promises in jail or worse. Only in the realm of religion do the shamans (of all kinds) get a free pass to make the most outrageous promises, and profit thereby, while providing no evidence that they can deliver on their promises.But there is hope: as our knowledge of our surroundings grows through science and rationality, there will be less and less need for superstition, mythology, and shamanism. Mankind will grow up and learn to stand on his own two feet, accepting reality courageously and without the need of shamans and their empty promises.Edited by Coyote, : New title

Title has been changed.

...you are taking things totally off topic.About the only thing that is on topic is your definition of a shaman:

Shaman; (specially among certain tribal peoples) - a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.

Do you disagree with my characterization of the origin of shamans in primitive societies?And are you suggesting that we don't have shamans (under different names) in our culture today?

In your quotation attempting to differentiate shamans from priests, you somehow left out the last line: I chose the word "shaman" to group religious practitioners under one of the earliest and broadest terms for them, as that is where the con I describe, that is, religion in general, originated.I don't feel that minor differences in approach, methods, or techniques are sufficient to separate particular religious practitioners from one another, or to make the term shaman inappropriate when describing them all collectively.Rather, the term shaman helps to clarify my point.

Wouldn't you rather follow Admin's direction, a few posts back, to stay on topic?The topic, in simple terms, is that religion and it's promises of an afterlife which shamans can provide--for a price--is a huge con.

Good question.Some probably believe it, but I think that they have either been conned, or have conned themselves. Others know it is a con, but don't much care.But it's such an attractive proposition! Eternal life! It would be a rare individual who didn't want some. "Pay me now for a chance at eternal life later."If there was some real evidence that supported all of those claims that would be one thing, but faith and belief are what's required for religion, not evidence. Evidence seems to be the last thing they want.

You are misreading my posts.I am not saying there are cons within religion. We all know that there are, as in all human endeavors.What I am saying, and what you refuse to debate, is that the concept of religion itself is a con. It is a con on mankind, a self-delusion born of wishful thinking and mankind's desire for what religion is selling--eternal life.But there is no evidence that the pay-me-now for a promise of life after death scheme is anything but a massive con, something far surpassing any of the cons you are trying to drag me into discussing so you can avoid the point of my thread.

OK, if you don't like the terms "shaman" and "slickest con" perhaps we can change it for you to better convey my intended meaning.How about the promise of an afterlife as made by "religious practitioners" is the most "egregious swindle" ever perpetrated on mankind?I'm not referring to the actions of a few crooked shamans/priests/etc. but rather the entire concept of religion as put forward by self-appointed religious practitioners, accompanied by unsubstantiated claims of being able to grease the way for their customers into a favorable afterlife--for a price.

From Wiki: "Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing. The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue."I used the term "shaman" to emphasize the historical tradition of religious practitioners extending from the prehistoric times to the present. I admit I used it in a broader fashion than is usual, but I did that in order to emphasize my point. Altered states are no longer as common in our society as in the past, but the overall tradition of interacting with the spirit world remains a defining characteristic.However, if you want to be technical, fasting in the desert for 40 days and nights would almost certainly lead to an altered state of consciousness.