Anyone ever heard of Rebecca Watson?

I don't necessarily have a problem with her being creeped out in the elevator. Or even that she suggested that men not proposition women in a confined space late at night. Everyone has their own comfort levels.My understanding, however, is that RW also stated that what elevator guy did was sexual objectification and therefore, misogynistic. She added to this by stating that while attending these sorts of conventions, she was being constantly harrassed by atheist men. If she did in fact state this, then I have a problem with it. Granted my skepticism arises through my own experiences as a woman working in a male-dominated field, but I think it's fair and reasonable for me to do so.In my experience working with and attending multiple conferences attended primarily with men (where public drunkenness occasionally ensues) over the last 20 years, I can honestly say that my experience has been overwhelmingly excellent. The men I work with come from a variety of economic levels, education levels, races/ethnicities, religious and non-religious affiliations, and parts of the country/world.So far, there have only been a handful of instances where I felt uncomfortable and these three men came from different economic, racial, and education levels. And I've gone out to dinner, lived in hotels, driven out to the middle of nowhere, and drank alcohol with these men. If they were going to behave poorly, those are surely the conditions in which to do so. Other than the one driller who prank called me every day for three weeks straight, I have never felt threatened or scared to hang out with any of the men I've worked with.That's not to say that suggestive, sexual, and generally inappropriate discussions do not happen. Or that I've never been propositioned. Of course they do. And I have. We are adults and a large proportion of those adults (male AND female) are looking to get laid. It happens and it's mutual. Humans are highly sexual beings as a result of millions of years of evolution that have programmed us to be that way -- and no doubt we are slow to change (evolve) and adapt to new cultural norms. But I don't think we need to go so far as to accuse men of objectifying women or being misogynists because of these natural attractions.At this point, everyone's probably thinking, yeah, but maybe you are so ugly no one would want you anyways. lol I'm average looking and fairly tomboyish, so I'm not everyone's type, but I've never had a problem attracting men.It's possible that I've been extremely lucky or that men in the mining industry just happen to be more polite than your average atheist man or that work colleagues will behave differently than recent acquaintances/strangers, but I have a hard time believing that. That's why I remain skeptical of RW's claims and intentions.

Of course. It's anecdotal, no question about that, but I do feel my experience gives me a little bit of insight into how men and women interact during those sorts of events. However, as you stated, this applies to RW's claims as well.What is the percentage of women who have faced what RW claims to have happened to her at the atheist conventions? There are boundaries already in place and the vast majority of men follow them. There will always be those few who will not, regardless of how loudly anyone complains. And most of them pay the price for not following *the rules.* That's how society works.Besides, what is bothersome to one woman will not be bothersome to another, and therefore any sort of proclamation that lists what is and is not acceptable pick-up behavior would be so huge as to essentially prohibit all men from speaking to all women. Sure. Make the attempt to not be creepy stalkers. But again, one woman will be creeped out by an elevator proposition and the other will appreciate the compliment. No different than opening a door for a woman. One will appreciate it, the other will cuss you out. Just be a nice guy. I am familiar with the statistics. I've also not been immune to what happens to women in this world outside of my professional life, but I'm not the type to live in such a prison the rest of my life. Much of where the problem lies as far as assaults go, is between men and women who are acquainted. And those are the ones that go un-reported.This is certainly a problem that requires a concerted effort to remedy. But for the time being, unless you intend to become a woman, women will always feel that little prick of unease when they meet you for the first time, whether it be alone at 4 am or noon on an elevator. It doesn't matter if you look like Samwise Gamgee or Alan Moore. The fact is, either one can hurt you. The only way our opinion changes is when we get to know you better. And even then it doesn't always work out in our favor, unfortunately.Is that something men can change today? No. Is it something that can ever change? Probably. Likely. I honestly don't know. We are the product of millions of years of evolution. It's not going to be easy... unless you have a working version of Pax.

I agree with everything you've written.I hadn't read anything regarding Schrodinger's Rapist before. I couldn't disagree with much, but I would add that some women will be more paranoid and others less.

It's my understanding based on what I've seen in RW's original elevatorgate video. RW states that elevatorguy sexualized her by propositioning her in the elevator after she had already spoken in the panel discussion about the "blatant misogyny" she suffers in as a woman skeptic. I simply put two and two together. June 1, 2012: Don't patronize me. Eventually, odds are that I would meet up with an asshat at some point in my life. So yeah, the fact that I've only met up with one over a 20 year period IS something worth pointing out. I guess I don't see the need to demonize the entire male species because of one jackwad. I'm not sure where you got the notion that I am okay with having been prank called daily by this person. Of course it was wrong and of course he did it to scare me. And of course I was scared. Particularly since I was far away from home staying alone in a strange little house in a strange little town. He knew exactly what he was doing, but I was young and naive then and really did not handle it appropriately.You are mistaken if you think I have a problem when women get creeped out by a man. I've already stated on this board [somewhere] that women all have their own comfort levels and you can never know where each of us sits. What I don't agree with, again, is blaming all men because of one jerk. I don't think that's fair and I don't think that qualifies as systemic.And while my overall experience working with men has been good, that's not to say that it can't be better. If 'Zero Harm' is possible, then by all means we should strive towards it. I'm sorry, I'm not really understanding these questions.I've never had anyone try to pick my up by scaring the shit out of me. And I can't assume the prankcaller was harassing me because he *wanted* me, per se. He never asked me out and when we spoke, he treated me with the utmost respect. He was a nutjob, obviously. He just wanted to scare me for whatever fucked up reason he had.Your average guy knows scaring someone is not the way to go. But I can't go around accusing every single guy who does something innocently stupid (e.g., like looking at me a bit too long, or accidentally brushing my thigh, or accidentally touching my foot with his foot under the table, or calling me 'darlin', or telling tasteless jokes, etc. ad nauseum) of being a misogynistic creep. I require a pattern of creepy behavior before I accuse someone like that. Or I trust my gut.My argument is that guys are not as bad as some people make them out to be. One bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, in my eyes. Does this make me naive? Maybe so. Maybe I should be a lot more afraid than I am.Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.

Seek and you will find.

That is not at all what I am referring to. If you're looking to be offended, if you're looking for misogyny, then you will certainly find it. Everywhere. Have we lost our shit? Not agreeing with you or others' points of view on this issue doesn't necessarily constitute lunacy. And besides, I'm completely open to the fact that I have misconstrued words and events. That's why I'm here making and reading comments on this topic. Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.

Why? So I can live my entire life living and playing the part of a victim? Fighting and hating people who I have to live and work with? That's not who I am and not who I want to be.
Obviously, I don't subscribe to all tenets of feminist theory -- I consider myself more of a traditional feminist. I fight for equal rights, reproductive rights, voting rights, equal pay, and so on. As such, I don't need everyone to like me in order to have those things, but what they will do and what I demand, in both my personal and professional life, is that they respect me and allow me my rights as a human being.That does not mean I deny that hatred, denigration, or discrimination of women exists. It does. Or that I think women should just shut up and take what they get. I don't. I just refuse to be defined by those things. And I certainly do understand why other women and men have a problem with these things. That's their right. Just don't fucking tell me I haven't thought about things enough or am blinded by my patriarchal upbringing.

If I don't give a crap that someone doesn't like me because I'm female or calls me a cunt or thinks women out to stay home and raise kids instead of working the mines, which are certainly misogynistic notions, then I am not being victimized by misogyny. By succeeding in my life and career, I'm rising above the hate and victimization that ignorant people promote. I have chosen not to waste time worrying about what others think of me or the names that they call me.At work, things are difference because I do have avenues which to exploit if I am not treated with due respect. In my personal life, I refuse to acknowledge the hate.I'm off to party in Vegas! Be back later to finish replying later. Oh, and my last statement of my last post... not directed at you personally.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I can't determine whether you are serious or simply baiting me for your own pleasure, but you have such a talent for twisting my words to such a degree that though they bear some resemblance to my thoughts, they are so ugly that I feel almost feel ashamed of them.What exactly am I afraid of? And again. You put words in my mouth. If anyone feels threatened, then they should report these threats to the authorities. I've never stated in any way shape or form that it was okay for RW to be threatened. I do feel that most of the threats were made just to piss her off and get a rise out of her. But if she felt they were credible, then I hope she reported them.There is a big difference between people's ignorant opinions of women and someone making threats. The first you can ignore, which I do, while the second you take action.

Harlot? Well that's a first. lolYou know what my partying in Vegas constituted? Eating great food, drinking good wine, and hanging with my husband of 20 years and 11 year old son.And I do insist that my body is MY business. So if you're a man who has a problem with abortions, then don't fucking have sex with someone you're not committed to. And if a woman has YOUR child outside of wedlock, then fucking man up and be a good father to YOUR child.