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Author Topic:   Help me understand Intelligent Design
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 303 (247358)
09-29-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by RAZD
09-27-2005 8:09 PM


ICs explained in evolutionary steps?
Hi RAZD,
RAZD writes:
IC systems have been explained in evolutionary step for every model that has been proposed. More than that, one has been observed to evolve, thus invalidating the concept entirely.
Out of curiousity, which IC has been observed to evolve?
But my bigger question regards the IC systems being explained in evolutionary steps.
What I've read so far has been as follows:
IDers: Organism {Oz} has a structure or process {SOPz} that is IC.
Evos: {Oa} has a simpler but related {SOPa}. I can imagine this small change to {SOPa} giving us {SOPb}...and so forth until we reach {SOPz}. Ta-da! It isn't IC after all.
But, for any of the proposed ICs and proposed evolutionary steps going from {SOPa} to {SOPz}, has a step-by-step been worked out for which DNA mutations would have to occur and the order in which they would have to occur to go from {SOPa} to {SOPz} -- forgetting the difficulty of whether an evolutionary line can even be thought to exist from {Oa} to {Oz} -- and forgetting the difficulty of where and how did the DNA/RNA structures and processes come from in the first place.
I have never seen the step-by-steps treated in a molecular way, but always wondered whether such models existed.
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2005 8:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 5:02 PM TheLiteralist has replied
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 09-29-2005 7:38 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 303 (247360)
09-29-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Nuggin
09-29-2005 3:34 PM


Re: All in agreement - There is not Intelligent Design
I the eiffel tower pic is at least circumstantial evidence of ID.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 3:34 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nwr, posted 09-29-2005 5:03 PM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 67 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 5:05 PM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2005 5:07 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 303 (247368)
09-29-2005 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Nuggin
09-29-2005 5:02 PM


Re: ICs explained in evolutionary steps?
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
If your question is "which gene causes what mutation in SOPc for example" then the answer is no. That's because SOPc is only known from the fossil record, and we usually don't get good DNA samples out of rocks.
But that's like asking you to prove that the Bible was written by Abraham but showing us all the copies since that original document was created.
Using those same standards, the Bible at best dates back only a few hundred years.
It almost sounds like you're saying that the evisioned step-by-steps are on equal par with either conjecture or faith -- as opposed to fact-based science.
Are you saying that?
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 5:02 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 6:28 PM TheLiteralist has replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 303 (247397)
09-29-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Nuggin
09-29-2005 6:28 PM


Re: ICs explained in evolutionary steps?
Nuggin,
Rephrased, my question could be stated: "Are current evo arguments against IC systems scientifically based?" I really don't see how the Bible fits into this discussion at all.
It appears to me that when IDers (not to be confused with YECers) put forth an example of an IC system, evos appear to "defeat" such examples -- SFAICT -- with nothing but imaginings.
So far, you've only strengthened that notion.
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 6:28 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 09-29-2005 7:38 PM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 76 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 10:50 PM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 78 by Nuggin, posted 09-30-2005 12:46 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

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