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Author
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Topic: Existence
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 129 of 1229 (615339)
05-12-2011 11:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
05-11-2011 11:28 PM
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Re: time
ICANT writes: The elevation of Greenwich England is 44' and the evelation of Bolder Colorado is 5325'. The clock in Greenwich is 5381' closer to the core of the earth. There is no reason for the variation other than the affect of gravity. Chuck Missler writes: There are atomic clocks installed at both the National Bureau of Standards at Boulder, Colorado, and at the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, England. Both are considered accurate to better than one-millionth of a second per year. However, the clock at Boulder ticks five microseconds faster per year than the one at Greenwich, England. Which one is correct? They both are! The one at Boulder is at an altitude of 5400 ft. above sea level. The one at Greenwich is only 80 ft. above sea level. The difference is caused by the fact that time is different due to the change in gravity. In 1971, J. C. Hafele and Richard Keating sent four cesium clocks around the world. The clocks on the eastward trip returned 59 nanoseconds behind the ones remaining at rest at the U.S. Naval Observatory. The clocks on the westward trip were 273 nanoseconds ahead. Accounting for the Earth's rotation and other gravitational effects, this was precisely what Einstein's formulas predicted. I believe this is where you got your info here this is also relevant to how gravity effects time also This is a real good source of info on the subject also.... fisicavolta.unipv.it/percorsi/pdf/td.pdf .... It might explain help things, although I am not sure where you were going with this line of thought. Sorry you will have to paste this, not sure how else to do it. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by ICANT, posted 05-11-2011 11:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 138 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2011 12:27 AM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 162 of 1229 (615611)
05-14-2011 5:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by ICANT
05-14-2011 4:58 PM
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Re: Renshaw vs relativity
ICANT writes: The GPS system uses the Lorentzian, not Einsteinian relativity. I find this very interesting and would love to read more on it, from all I can find they use SR and GR to compensate for differences in clocks. Can you please provide me with your source for your statement above, thanks.
a comparison of the two Here is an interesting bit on gps ,although I cant say anything of its source, seems questionable, but still interesting comparison. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by ICANT, posted 05-14-2011 4:58 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 166 by ICANT, posted 05-14-2011 10:11 PM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 169 of 1229 (615676)
05-15-2011 4:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
05-15-2011 4:18 PM
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Re: Time
Duration may refer to: The measure of continuance of any object or event within Time Time is a part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change such as the motions of objects. In common usage, existence is the world we are aware of through our senses, and that persists independently without them. These definitions are taken from wiki, they seem pretty straight forward. I just cant understand where the confusion about them comes from. I understand your argument about GPS clocks, I have read alot on it recently, but it seems like agreed upon definitions of words might help, JMO
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by ICANT, posted 05-15-2011 4:18 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by hooah212002, posted 05-15-2011 4:41 PM | | fearandloathing has replied | | | Message 176 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 12:37 AM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Re: Time
I think it is more that he believes in Lorentzian relativity, and not GR/SR as Einstein saw it. If I am wrong then please correct me ICANT, as I am trying to grasp the confusion here and see the topic move forward.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by hooah212002, posted 05-15-2011 4:41 PM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 179 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 1:04 AM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 174 of 1229 (615681)
05-15-2011 5:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 171 by ICANT
05-15-2011 5:05 PM
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Re: Time
ICANT writes: What kind of an object is time that it can be relative to something? Time is not an object, it is a system of measurement. I am sitting in front of my computer, moving 0 mph, one might also say the earth is rotating at X mph therefore so am I, or even that the earth is traveling around the sun at x mph, therefore I sitting still am still moving at x mph. It is all how you look at it and from what perspective/ point of observation. Mph can be substituted by any time/distance ratio, feet per second,...ect Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by ICANT, posted 05-15-2011 5:05 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 181 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 1:30 AM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 184 of 1229 (615747)
05-16-2011 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 180 by ICANT
05-16-2011 1:23 AM
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Re: Time
Icant writes: Well if it is not an object how does it dilate? Here is a fairly simple explanation with the math to support it, although I believe we might be at an impasse. In order not to post a bunch of redundant links and re-stating what others have already said, it might be best to agree to disagree 
time dilation ICANT writes: I disagree. You are never moving at 0 mph. You are in constant motion, makes no difference what you are doing. The point I was trying to make is that my speed/velocity is relative to the observer. It all depends on what you are using to reference my movement, in relation to the surface of the earth I can be not moving. If you look at it from another way the earth is turning, or orbiting,or our solar system is moving in the galaxy, or even the galaxy is moving in relation to other galaxies. Having said this I ask you, What is my true velocity?? Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 1:23 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 186 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 3:29 PM | | fearandloathing has replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 188 of 1229 (615767)
05-16-2011 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 186 by ICANT
05-16-2011 3:29 PM
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Re: Time
ICANT writes: you are moving at over 500,000 mph whether anyone observes that movement or not How fast is the Earth spinning? 0.5 km/sec How fast is the Earth revolving around the Sun? 30 km/sec How fast is the Solar System moving around the Milky Way Galaxy? 250 km/sec How fast is our Milky Way Galaxy moving in the Local Group of galaxies? 300 km/sec Your speed is a little off if you are referring to speed of our orbit, its 66,622.1765 mph. My point is all of these are correct, it all is relative to the observer and what he uses as a reference point., If we can agree on this then we can maybe discuss how this simple truth can also relate to time. I guess when it comes down to it, far as existence goes, I think, therefore I am, works well for me Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 186 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 3:29 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 199 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2011 12:24 PM | | fearandloathing has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 190 of 1229 (615787)
05-16-2011 7:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by ICANT
05-14-2011 4:58 PM
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Re: Renshaw vs relativity
ICANT writes: The GPS system uses the Lorentzian, not Einsteinian relativity. I have just got off the phone with
Schriever Space Force Base (Archived) > Home
, you are wrong. They use GR/SR which includes Lorentzian equations concerning velocity. Feel free to call or E-mail them to confirm what I have Just learned. I suggest you call 719 567 3191, as this was the number given to me that I received this answer from. It seems to me that your sources for your above statement were cherry picking. There is a paper/book on this that the National Institute of Standards and Technology put out...NIST1385 , march 1999 that details exactly how they arrive at their calculations, it was put out to answer the claims you make. Seems you might be a little late in this line of reasoning. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by ICANT, posted 05-14-2011 4:58 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 192 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2011 12:30 AM | | fearandloathing has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 214 of 1229 (615871)
05-17-2011 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 185 by ICANT
05-16-2011 1:43 PM
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Re: Time
Here is the straight dope on gps clocks and how relativity effects them, please read it as this is beginning to test my patience, Thanks When you see something you don't agree with let me know exactly where and on what page, I promise you this is one of the most credible sources. I guess you don't want to call the air force as I did, I provided you # to do so yourself, This is the paper they said to get you to read, once again thanks Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 185 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2011 1:43 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 216 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-17-2011 9:40 PM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 215 of 1229 (615874)
05-17-2011 6:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 207 by ICANT
05-17-2011 4:52 PM
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Re: Time
ICANT writes: You remember what you did or what happened but that is only a memory. Tomorrow never comes as it is always today when it gets here. There is no past or future there is only now which is continual motion. On a slightly different note, thank god...LOLOL The light you see from stars in the sky are from the past, further away the star then the older the light we see is, I would say that is a good indication that the past once existed, in some ways, ie their light, it still does. This might be a flawed line of thought, but I felt the need to get off relativity a bit. , but please do go to here to see about the gps system and relativity, these are people who build the clocks.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2011 4:52 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 221 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2011 4:41 PM | | fearandloathing has replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 222 of 1229 (615976)
05-18-2011 4:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by ICANT
05-18-2011 4:41 PM
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Re: Time
I guess you didn't read it, or lack the intelligence to understand it is more likely, any relativistic correction made to the system, whether it be at the receiver or to the clocks on the satellite prove relativity. Why else would they have to be made, gravity alone is not the only reason. I would trust the Air force, and The National Institute of Standards and Technology before any source you have provided, these are the people who build and operate the system, are they lying, by the way you asked someone else the same question. You simply do not understand,or refuse to admit your WRONG.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2011 4:41 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 225 of 1229 (615980)
05-18-2011 6:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by ICANT
05-18-2011 4:41 PM
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Re: Time
OK chew on this about the ESA's GNSS system and let me know what you think.
Why include relativity? The theory of relativity (both special and general) teaches us
that space and time are not absolute. A pair of events has a causal relation only if one is in
the light cone of the other one. This has a lot of consequences on a GNNS Any relativistic correction added to any part of the system, including the receivers, prove it happens, gravity is not the only thing to account for , as you have now been shown by 2 independent, credible, operators of gps systems, shall I look for a Russian paper on their system? And thanks Taq, you posted before I could look back at it as I was finding this one. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2011 4:41 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 248 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2011 3:04 AM | | fearandloathing has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 229 of 1229 (615985)
05-18-2011 6:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 228 by Rahvin
05-18-2011 6:40 PM
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Re: Everyone needs to step back a bit...
I agree Rahvin, and you never know, maybe he will learn something, whether he admits it here or not. I have tryed to be polite and provide credible information on gps and relativity. I like to hike and use gps in conjunction with a map and compass, and have always found the system fascinating, now I know even more about it, even talked to several people who help maintain and operate our gps system, although I am now on some watch list probably
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 228 by Rahvin, posted 05-18-2011 6:40 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 230 of 1229 (615997)
05-18-2011 8:39 PM
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Russian GPS/GLONASS
Here is a paper on Russia's glonass system and effects of relativity on it. I would really like to put this to bed, but I suspect it will be ignored also 
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 237 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2011 3:03 PM | | fearandloathing has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 241 of 1229 (616117)
05-19-2011 5:06 PM
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"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man... I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence -- as well as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." Albert Einstein Just thought I would post the thoughts of a man who firmly believed in relativity and god. Religion wasn't a limiting factor in his life, it never stopped him from using his mind to its fullest potential. His work is as relevant today as when he first published it, and I guess he wouldn't be child-like if his work was to be proven wrong. He would learn from it. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 242 by hooah212002, posted 05-19-2011 9:35 PM | | fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 243 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2011 10:57 PM | | fearandloathing has replied |
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