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Author Topic:   Is Infinity Real?
nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 9 of 48 (598956)
01-04-2011 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anselm
01-02-2011 1:24 PM


anselm writes:
Arguments for a "First Cause" presented by philosophers from Aristotle to Jaki are that infinite regression is not possible.
And then there is the Zeno's paradox argument, which purports to show that motion is impossible.
We should be skeptical of all such arguments.
Is reality infinite? I don't see how we could ever determine that.
It is best to think of infinity as a human idealized concept. The way that the infinite works in mathematics seems to be mostly not a problem, though some people have conceptual struggles over, say, the Banach-Tarski paradox.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by xongsmith, posted 01-04-2011 1:52 PM nwr has replied
 Message 13 by slevesque, posted 01-05-2011 3:53 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 11 of 48 (598982)
01-04-2011 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by xongsmith
01-04-2011 1:52 PM


xongsmith writes:
...but even more powerful than Infinity is NaN. Anything that comes into contact with a NaN becomes a NaN.
LOL.
For those not familiar, "NaN" stands for "Not a Number", and is defined in the IEEE standard for floating point arithmetic.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 16 of 48 (599145)
01-05-2011 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by slevesque
01-05-2011 3:53 AM


slevesque writes:
But Zeno's paradox is only called so because it is counter-intuitive (veridical paradox), since it is solved through Calculus in Mathematics.
There are still people who argue that the calculus does not solve the problem.
The real problem is that we construct abstract models of reality, and do our computations in those abstract models. The mistake is to assume that the model is reality. Zeno's paradox was due to a model that didn't fit well enough. It's a good illustration of why we need empirical evidence, and cannot just go by our theoretical deductions.
slevesque writes:
I think the paradox of infinite regression not being possible falls into the category falsidical paradoxes.
But it is still based on an abstract model. And whenever the model talks about the infinite, it has gone beyond what has been tested empirically.
slevesque writes:
But if the premises are true and no fallacy is involved, then there is no place for skepticism, unless you put into question the laws of logic.
The laws of logic don't apply to reality. They apply to the human constructs that we use to model and describe reality. The logic can be done correctly, yet reach wrong conclusions, if it is used with respect to a model that does not fit well enough.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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 Message 19 by AdminSlev, posted 01-05-2011 2:57 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 20 of 48 (599211)
01-05-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AdminSlev
01-05-2011 2:57 PM


slevesque writes:
Zeno's paradox is due to a false premise: An Infinite sum cannot give a finite number. Calculus showed that this premise was false.
That's one way of looking at it. The other way is to see it as saying that movement requires infinitely many stages, and we can only carry out a finite number of those.
slevesque writes:
How would you define ''a model that does not fit well enough'' ? Would it not simply be a model that is missing some premises, or that some premises are false ? If this is the case then you are still well within the boundaries of logical thinking.
We don't apply logic to reality. We apply it to our sentences that we use to describe reality. Our descriptions are generally imperfect and incomplete.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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