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Author Topic:   Can Natural Selection Produce Intelligent Design?
Thor
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 50 of 75 (234707)
08-19-2005 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by lmrenault
08-18-2005 8:51 PM


Re: how about some answers
Rather than start with the result and think backwards, it can make things clearer if you go back to a point in time and think forwards from there.
What I want to see is how the unique human capacities that make *us* designers can be produced by "natural" selection. Because there is such a quantum leap from the intelligence of lower animals to the amazing capacity of humans, we need compelling evidence of how the transition occured. I haven't seen that evidence yet.
Here is where you need to think a little. One must consider the environment that our ancestors were living in when human intelligence was beginning to evolve and place ourselves in it for a moment. It’s an unfriendly environment with predators, and competition for food. Compared to other creatures, early humans aren’t particularly strong or fast, which puts a great deal of pressure on their survival. So, they need another advantage to adapt. Luckily, they have their brain. The brains of some have grown in size and acquired a better awareness of their surroundings (picture the scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey, where the ape is playing around with a leg bone and realises that it can be an extension of his arm, allowing him to strike with much greater power). So there are these guys with slightly smarter brains using very basic tools and weapons, and those who aren’t so smart and still trying to hunt and fight with bare hands. Who is more likely to survive? And so, this goes on for some time, if you’re smarter you survive. They reproduce, the smartest offspring being those that survive, and so on.
Another important consideration is that groups have a better chance of survival than individuals, safety in numbers. They can cooperate better as a group if they have a means of communicating amongst themselves. Generally among early human groups communication is very basic, but with smarter brains, more sophisticated and effective communication is able to develop. Those that communicate better are the ones that survive.
That’s where it all starts. Because the human is not particularly well built for survival in the physical realm, we have always been very dependent on our brain, so the main selection pressure has been on its abilities. Therefore, natural selection has generally favoured the more intelligent brain, ending up at the point where we are at today.
You made this point in an earlier post:
That’s what natural selection is all about — survival of the species. You make the wrong choices and you die. You make the right choices and you survive. Humans, on the other hand, take a million creative actions that don’t depend on survival.
Today’s humans do, yes. In modern society we do not have the everyday survival struggle that our earliest ancestors did, however we still do retain the abilities of the brain that allowed them to survive. Lets look at the example of Shakespeare’s sonnets that you mentioned a while back. Going right to the core, I’d say they are basically a manifestation of the human ability of language and communication, which as I’ve already mentioned was important for survival. Just because we don’t need those creative actions for survival, doesn’t mean we stop using them.
So in summary, basically I'd say yes, natural selection can produce intelligent design (as practiced by humans). In fact, I find it hard to imagine it NOT being produced, based on the environment our ancestors were up against.

On the 7th day, God was arrested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by lmrenault, posted 08-18-2005 8:51 PM lmrenault has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by lmrenault, posted 08-20-2005 5:59 PM Thor has replied

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 68 of 75 (235351)
08-22-2005 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by lmrenault
08-20-2005 5:59 PM


Re: how about some answers
Thor, I like your comments - what you have to say and the spirit in which it is said.
Thanks, one does one’s best.
but you have prompted me to do a little more research on our friend Homo sapien (Hs).
And I am indeed pleased that you have.
Can we agree that Hss is no ordinary product of natural selection?
Up to a point. We are extraordinary in that we have a particular advanced adaptation (ie. brain ability) that no other species has to the extent that we do. Well, none that we are aware of anyway. But even though you could say we are not an ordinary product of NS (natural selection), we still are a product of NS. I could say there are several other products of NS that are extraordinary in their own way. I think that bacteria that survive buried in ice are pretty extraordinary. Then there is the way bats use a radar-like ability for catching prey, that’s rather amazing in my book. And the platypus, what on earth is up with that? I only learned a few years ago that they are venomous, as if they weren’t weird enough already.
I could go on listing other traits and adaptations that I think are pretty cool, but I think you get my point. Yes we have an extraordinary ability, but that does not necessarily mean it is superior to others, just different and unique, as are many things in many creatures.

On the 7th day, God was arrested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by lmrenault, posted 08-20-2005 5:59 PM lmrenault has not replied

  
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