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Author | Topic: Why is sin heritable? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pauline Member (Idle past 3765 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
Mod writes: A & E sinned. They disobeyed Yahweh. Now sin has first entered into creation by the actions of A & E. False. Satan first introduced sin into the world i.e first being to sin Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin.
Those that followed sinned. And as such they died. It wasn't 'passed down' it was just a repeating pattern of people not obeying god's admittedly very high standards. But I think Larni's question is, why was it a repeating pattern i.e why did God allow it to become a repeating pattern and not just curb it (after all,He hates it)? There has to be a reason why it is a recurring pattern i.e what theologians commonly refer to as original sin. Larni, I don't know the answer. I'm questioning along with you... It seems to me that if Adam's soul was marred because of his sin, then God would give Adam's son a pure soul like Adam once had, making only Adam pay for his sins. It is difficult to not know why....and still believe. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3765 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
Peg writes: Adam could no longer pass perfection of mind body and heart to his children. He could not pass on Gods perfect image (the image that he was created to reflect) because he stopped reflecting those perfect qualities when he willfully disobeyed....the consequences of which affected him physically and mentally. He could only pass on the traits and qualities that he now possesed. So perfection of mind body and, heart is how you're defining God's image. But I say its more than that. Anyway, the main point is, the inheritable traits and qualities that the sinful Adam possessed do not include his soul, do they? I've never come across a Bible verse that says souls are inheritable i.e a bad person's son will automatically also be bad or vice versa. Its not a question od whether or not Adam's character was marred, its why, because of Adam, are all of our characters automatically marred? And to say that Adam's soul was passed to us all is, to my knowledge, not Biblical. So the law of heredity thing sounds very unconvincing...
An imperfect man cannot bring forth a perfect man. Dandy statements and all. Nevertheless like sponges, devoid of weight. But, where does perfection lie? In the soul, yes? And we know souls are not inheritable, yes? So where did human perfection get lost or what did God do with it?
The law of hereditary states that both physical and mental traits will be passed onto the offspring and this is why we recieved his imperfection...or his sin. We never received his sin. We received his sin nature..and we're trying to figure out why we did.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3765 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
DS writes: False. Satan first introduced sin into the world i.e first being to sin Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin. Mod writes: Ok fair enough- clearly you know the truth and I am a poor fool.Take it up with Saint Paul since it was he that deceived me. From Romans 5:12-14 Your intelligence and knowledge, some could only dream of achieving, Modulus. Far from me thinking what you said. I only pointed out a small mistake.
Paul writes: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Yes, That's how sin entered the world. You said that sin entered creation through Adam and Eve. And I understood your usage of the word "creation" to mean everything God ever created, which includes angels..which includes lucifer. Apparently, you seem to be referring to the earth/world when you say creation. In this sense, Paul, you and I all agree. But when you say,
Now sin has first entered into creation by the actions of A & E One has to ask, what do you mean by creation? And unless you specifically say something like earth or world something to denote the natural created world, people are prone to assume that you're talking about all of creation--natural and supernatural. Anyway, my intention was only to clear the statement's ambiguity---which might have been present only to my eyes, in which case, I apologize if I offended you. But it is fact that sin entered creation through satan.
How could Yahweh stop humans with free will from doing what they wanted to do, which was sin. He told them they had a choice, they could master their urge to sin - but they did not. The question is, WHY did they want to sin as opposed to not sin?WHY did they not want to master the sin urges as opposed to master them? There must have been some sort of spiritual, i supernatural intervention than brought about this unexpected affinity towards sin in Adam's descendants. I don't see any logic in the idea Adam's soul-now sinful was passed on to us and therefore we are sinful.
Through trusting that he will keep his promises, and via the resurrection of Christ, we can all escape sin and death entirely. Yes.
We don't need to resist the urge to sin, just trust that Yahweh will free us from it. The Apostle Paul's not going to side with you on this one.
Cain had a choice. Yahweh said: You can choose to disobey me, or obey me. You have the power within you to do the right thing. Genesis 4:7 quote: His soul was not 'tainted'. It was as pure as Adam's. He had the choice to sin or not to sin and the capacity for both. He freely chose to murder his brother. He cursed him, and then protected him from mortal retribution for being cursed. In that case, why do we need Jesus, His death, and resurrection since you seem to imply that perfect purity can be achieved through proper exercise of freewill? Or are you implying that Christ's sacrifice was pointless? Edited by Dr. Sing, : formatting Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3765 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
Peg writes: All the animals that were brought forth became living souls Animals are also souls like us then? Uhh...
we did infact inherit Adams 'soul'....his living body was his soul and therefore the traits of that living body were passed onto us the same way we pass our physical traits onto our children. People don't inherit souls. Like Dr A said, this is spiritual Lamarckism...weird.
Human perfection became lost when Adam failed to live up to those standards. Perfect righteousness would have prevented Adam from disobeying God, Perfect love would have kept Adam loyal to God and perfect justice would have caused Adam to reject his wifes offer to eat the fruit. So you're arguing for Adam's imperfection before the fall? Hence your use of the word prevented/kept/reject this many times...
because traits are passed on from parents to children. Genes dictate, not only hair, skin and eye color but also mental ability,inclination and personality. No one denies that. However, sin is not carried on genes, is it?
we think the same way as him....this is why we also fall short of Gods image and glory. Ok--how does/did Adam think? If I think a certain way, is it 100% probable that my daughter will think the same exact way I do? Abel is a good case in point here...he certainly "thought differently" from Adam, yes? Enoch? Noah? Righteous people born of a unrighteous man these are... There has got to be more than "we think like Adam because we're his children" to the answer.
Mod writes: Lucifer isn't mentioned in Genesis. Where does he disobey Yahweh before Adam and Eve? Even the serpent didn't disobey Yahweh if that's what you were thinking. It is the commonly held belief in Christianity that satan sinned by his 5 "I wills" even before Adam sinned.
Sure Paul would say we should try to resist the urge to sin, but he would argue that we needn't succeed to gain salvation. But that's a different issue, isn't it?
Yahweh tried that, by creating a strict law and covenant. It didn't free mankind from sin. He could keep trying something that didn't work, but that would make him a fool. You portray OT law as a failed attempt towards achieving righteousness, when in reality, it was only a stage setter for the future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Had that man not eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be tending the garden today and we would not exist. Only he and the woman made from his rib would exist. I agree with everything you say up until this point. What does sin have anything to do with procreation?
So everyone is under the penalty of sin which is death.
All men are under the penalty of sin.
Mankind was separated from God by the disobedience of this man. Substitute "Adam" with the bolded, and that make sense. But if you want to say what you said, you also have to explain the connection between Adam and his children that is responsible for original sin. What exactly is it that we inherit from Adam that makes us sinful? I understand the chronology and logistics of the events that led to "mankind's fall", but I'm trying to find an answer for why God would not let Adam's sons have a new, righteous soul? There are people in the Bible whose bent was towards God...so much so that God even took Enoch up to be with Him....so why?
False. God brought sin into the world by creating beings capable of going against his will. Violating his will is the definition of sin, so the introduction of free will is inherently tied to sin. You can argue if this was a good idea, but sin being God's fault is beyond discussion. If you lock a kid up in a room with an adult and the kid makes a mistake, yes, it is the adult's responsibility. But that doesn't exempt the kid from the timeout he needs to get, yes? The mistake was still done by the kid. Right.
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